Calvin did not invent the doctrines of grace
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... so God gives "spiritual life" to a person so he or she can reject Him???Rejection of God and rejection of Scripture is a response to God having first reached out to mankind.
That you do not understand that rejection of God is a response from mankind to Him does not mean their rejection is not a response.
Isaiah 53:3 He [the Lord Jesus Christ] is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.
Jeremiah 6:
16 Thus saith the LORD, Stand ye in the ways, and see, and ask for the old paths, where is the good way, and walk therein, and ye shall find rest for your souls. But they said, We will not walk therein.
17 Also I set watchmen over you, saying, Hearken to the sound of the trumpet. But they said, We will not hearken.
18 Therefore hear, ye nations, and know, O congregation, what is among them.
19 Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto my words, nor to my law, but rejected it.
Hosea 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
God's rejection of some is due to their rejection of Him.
You believe a person must be born again before he or she can believe the gospel.
However, what saith the Scripture:
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it [the gospel of Christ] is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
The words "that believeth" are a verb – active, which means that the "every one" is the one who believes.
The person believes the gospel and the gospel is the power of God unto salvation.
You can believe what is written ... or you can suppress the truth in unrighteousness:
Romans 1:
18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;
19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.
vs 18 – the words "who hold" are translated from the Greek word katechō which means to suppress, restrain. And the verb is active, which means the person suppresses/restrains the truth.
They reject because they restrain the truth. They turn from God to a lie. And in turning from God, that is their response to God having made the "first move" in their life.
In stating "if someone truly and sincerely reaches out to God from the heart, it is only because God HAD ALREADY SAVED AND JUSTIFIED THEM and their reaching out to Him is a byproduct of that", you are adding concepts to Scripture which are not contained in the text.
You believe a person must be born again before he or she can believe the gospel by which a person is born again.
How many times must a person be born again before he or she is really, truly, really, really, really, scout's honor born again?
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more of your ongoing practice of ripping a verse from the context in which the Author of Scripture placed it.2 Tim 2:25 relates to believers who have turned from the truth of Scripture and who are being held by a snare of the adversary as is shown in the next verse:
2 Timothy 2:26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
When reading 2 Tim 2:25 in context, you see that there were a couple of folks who came into the church and taught the believers that the resurrection is past already (vss 17-18).
Then in vs 21 Paul stated if a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use.
So Paul is referring to the believers in the congregation who had listened to false teachers (who had come into the church and taught things which were not true and thereby overthrow the faith of some – vs 18).
Now read 2 Timothy 2:25 together with vss 24 and 26:
2 Timothy 2:
24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
vs 26 the words "they may recover themselves" are translated from the Greek word ananēphō which means to be set free from the snare of the devil and to return to a sound mind ['one's sober senses'].
In order to "return to" a sound mind, they must have had a sound mind before having turned to the false teaching of Hymenaeus and Philetus.
vs 25 refers to believers who had been led away from truth by false teachers.
vs 24 refers to the believer who sees another believer who has been led away from the truth and who gently brings the believer back into the fold.
READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
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more of your ongoing practice of ripping a verse from the context in which the Author of Scripture placed it.2 Tim 2:25 relates to believers who have turned from the truth of Scripture and who are being held by a snare of the adversary as is shown in the next verse:
2 Timothy 2:26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
When reading 2 Tim 2:25 in context, you see that there were a couple of folks who came into the church and taught the believers that the resurrection is past already (vss 17-18).
Then in vs 21 Paul stated if a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use.
So Paul is referring to the believers in the congregation who had listened to false teachers (who had come into the church and taught things which were not true and thereby overthrow the faith of some – vs 18).
Now read 2 Timothy 2:25 together with vss 24 and 26:
2 Timothy 2:
24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
vs 26 the words "they may recover themselves" are translated from the Greek word ananēphō which means to be set free from the snare of the devil and to return to a sound mind ['one's sober senses'].
In order to "return to" a sound mind, they must have had a sound mind before having turned to the false teaching of Hymenaeus and Philetus.
vs 25 refers to believers who had been led away from truth by false teachers.
vs 24 refers to the believer who sees another believer who has been led away from the truth and who gently brings the believer back into the fold.
READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
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They recover themselves AFTER being GIVEN repentance. That means they have already become saved. It does NOT mean they
save themselves. God indwells them and gives a new mind and spirit upon becoming born-again from which that happens. A person spiritually dead cannot give themselves spiritual life nor recover themselves from anything.
I don't see any benefit in continuing this discussion further. I know and trust in Christ alone as Saviour and you trust in your works for salvation as evidenced by this post, so we are on two contradictory and mutually exclusive paths. Should you come to know Christ, we can then discuss further.
They were already believers BEFORE Hymenaeus and Philetus came into the church with heretical teaching.
Read verse 18 again
2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
Hymenaeus and Philetus came into the church, taught false teachings, and subverted the faith of some.
The "some" were already believers before Hymenaeus and Philetus came into the church.
I never claimed anyone can "save themselves".
so then, according to these two sentences
... the believers were born again
... then Hymenaeus and Philetus came in and overthrew the faith of some (vs 18), at which point according to the statements you just made they were no longer born again and they had to be born again again???
rogerg ... you have to read verses within the context the Author of Scripture has placed them or you end up with the scenario just laid out ... which is completely untrue.
A person who is born again can be led away from the Lord Jesus Christ through false teaching. It does not mean they are not born again ... it just means that they are no longer walking in accordance with who and what they are in the Lord Jesus Christ.
... r-i-g-h-t ... heaven forbid you should learn to read verses within the context within which the Author of Scripture has placed them. No, it is much better to rip verses from the context and fall into the snare like those believers Hymenaeus and Philetus led astray.
nope ... salvation is wholly by grace through faith.
Your error is that you consider faith to be works and Scripture tells us faith is not works:
Romans 4:
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness
I know the Lord Jesus Christ and your need to belittle me is nothing but your rebellious nature fighting against the truth of Scripture you have been shown these last couple of weeks as you and I have been discussing Scripture.
You rip verses from the context in your futile attempt to manipulate what the Author has laid out to your own "private interpretation" of the Scriptures.
It's really sad what you do with Scripture ... you reject the truth of Scripture and justify your rejection by claiming that the person with whom you disagree does not really know Christ, so you don't have to search the Scriptures to make sure those things are so
Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
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Read verse 18 again
2 Timothy 2:18 Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
Hymenaeus and Philetus came into the church, taught false teachings, and subverted the faith of some.
The "some" were already believers before Hymenaeus and Philetus came into the church.
I never claimed anyone can "save themselves".
so then, according to these two sentences
... the believers were born again
... then Hymenaeus and Philetus came in and overthrew the faith of some (vs 18), at which point according to the statements you just made they were no longer born again and they had to be born again again???
rogerg ... you have to read verses within the context the Author of Scripture has placed them or you end up with the scenario just laid out ... which is completely untrue.
A person who is born again can be led away from the Lord Jesus Christ through false teaching. It does not mean they are not born again ... it just means that they are no longer walking in accordance with who and what they are in the Lord Jesus Christ.
... r-i-g-h-t ... heaven forbid you should learn to read verses within the context within which the Author of Scripture has placed them. No, it is much better to rip verses from the context and fall into the snare like those believers Hymenaeus and Philetus led astray.nope ... salvation is wholly by grace through faith.
Your error is that you consider faith to be works and Scripture tells us faith is not works:
Romans 4:
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness
I know the Lord Jesus Christ and your need to belittle me is nothing but your rebellious nature fighting against the truth of Scripture you have been shown these last couple of weeks as you and I have been discussing Scripture.
You rip verses from the context in your futile attempt to manipulate what the Author has laid out to your own "private interpretation" of the Scriptures.
It's really sad what you do with Scripture ... you reject the truth of Scripture and justify your rejection by claiming that the person with whom you disagree does not really know Christ, so you don't have to search the Scriptures to make sure those things are so
Acts 17:11 These were more noble than those in Thessalonica, in that they received the word with all readiness of mind, and searched the scriptures daily, whether those things were so.
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This portion of your post is the last one that I am going to reply to for the reasons I stated previously in my last post to you.
Here is the answer. Read each verse closely.
[Luk 8:13 KJV]
13 They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
[1Pe 1:5 KJV]
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Now, it has been a while since I read 2 Tim so I am not current on all of its subtilties or implications, nor do I plan on becoming so right now. However, I will take at face that what you've posted as being correct.
Anyway - and this has been my point all along - that any faith generated by a man is not a true eternal faith. For a faith to be so, it must only come to them by the Holy Spirit, and by whom, they will never fall away nor be tempted into a false gospel: true faith only comes as a fruit of the Spirit from being born-again. That it can be produced by man's efforts is your belief, not mine, so by 2 Tim 2:18, you disprove your own doctrine.
And I noticed that you chose not to include 2 Tim 2:19 with 2 Tim 2:18 which verse confirms my statement. Do you see the
"nevertheless"?
[2Ti 2:19 KJV]
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
Here is the answer. Read each verse closely.
[Luk 8:13 KJV]
13 They on the rock [are they], which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.
[1Pe 1:5 KJV]
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
Now, it has been a while since I read 2 Tim so I am not current on all of its subtilties or implications, nor do I plan on becoming so right now. However, I will take at face that what you've posted as being correct.
Anyway - and this has been my point all along - that any faith generated by a man is not a true eternal faith. For a faith to be so, it must only come to them by the Holy Spirit, and by whom, they will never fall away nor be tempted into a false gospel: true faith only comes as a fruit of the Spirit from being born-again. That it can be produced by man's efforts is your belief, not mine, so by 2 Tim 2:18, you disprove your own doctrine.
And I noticed that you chose not to include 2 Tim 2:19 with 2 Tim 2:18 which verse confirms my statement. Do you see the
"nevertheless"?
[2Ti 2:19 KJV]
19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
this statement is error, rogerg. Born again believers can and do believe false doctrine and I have provided you with Scripture which supports this fact.
That you do not believe a born again believer can be led astray is an issue you need to come to terms with because God warns His people over and over ... throughout OT and NT. I provided some verses to you here and here wherein God warns born again believers to be careful ... I have also properly explained what is written in 2 Tim 2:15-26.
you neither properly understand faith ... nor do you properly understand my belief concerning faith ... so just stop with your unsubstantiated claims.
read the verse again, rogerg:
2 Timothy 2:18 Who [Hymenaeus and Philetus] concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
Hymenaeus and Philetus went into the congregation and taught that the resurrection is past already.
Through the false teaching of Hymenaeus and Philetus, the faith of some was subverted (the word "overthrow" is translated from the Greek word anatrepō which means to subvert, undermine).
Just because some born again ones were led astray by Hymenaeus and Philetus, that does not mean they were not born again. It just means they followed men. The Lord Jesus Christ tells us that He will come after those who are lost and we can be assured that He will leave the 99 and come after the 1 who is lost. However, until the born again one is brought back to the fold, he or she is lost.
2 Timothy 2:18 actually disproves "your own doctrine", since, according to you, faith "must only come to them by the Holy Spirit" and 2 Tim 2:18 clearly states that Hymenaeus and Philetus subverted, undermined the faith of some. So the "some" were of the faith (believers), yet followed false teachers.
Actually, 2 Timothy 2:19 confirms what I told you ... that the false teaching of Hymenaeus and Philetus subverted/undermined the faith of some born again ones in the congregation.
READ YOUR BIBLE!!! ... and quit lifting verses of Scripture from the context within which the Author of Scripture has placed the verse in order to prop up a notion not intended by the Author of Scripture.
Again, we are to understand words within verses, verses within immediate context, immediate context within remote context, and all Scripture is to fit together with no contradictions.
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That you do not believe a born again believer can be led astray is an issue you need to come to terms with because God warns His people over and over ... throughout OT and NT. I provided some verses to you here and here wherein God warns born again believers to be careful ... I have also properly explained what is written in 2 Tim 2:15-26.
you neither properly understand faith ... nor do you properly understand my belief concerning faith ... so just stop with your unsubstantiated claims.
read the verse again, rogerg:
2 Timothy 2:18 Who [Hymenaeus and Philetus] concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some.
Hymenaeus and Philetus went into the congregation and taught that the resurrection is past already.
Through the false teaching of Hymenaeus and Philetus, the faith of some was subverted (the word "overthrow" is translated from the Greek word anatrepō which means to subvert, undermine).
Just because some born again ones were led astray by Hymenaeus and Philetus, that does not mean they were not born again. It just means they followed men. The Lord Jesus Christ tells us that He will come after those who are lost and we can be assured that He will leave the 99 and come after the 1 who is lost. However, until the born again one is brought back to the fold, he or she is lost.
2 Timothy 2:18 actually disproves "your own doctrine", since, according to you, faith "must only come to them by the Holy Spirit" and 2 Tim 2:18 clearly states that Hymenaeus and Philetus subverted, undermined the faith of some. So the "some" were of the faith (believers), yet followed false teachers.
Actually, 2 Timothy 2:19 confirms what I told you ... that the false teaching of Hymenaeus and Philetus subverted/undermined the faith of some born again ones in the congregation.
READ YOUR BIBLE!!! ... and quit lifting verses of Scripture from the context within which the Author of Scripture has placed the verse in order to prop up a notion not intended by the Author of Scripture.
Again, we are to understand words within verses, verses within immediate context, immediate context within remote context, and all Scripture is to fit together with no contradictions.
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Yes its given to His elect, called Israel Acts 5:31
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Israel here isnt ethnic national israel, but Gods chosen people from among all ethnic groups. Christ as their Saviour gives them repentance and the forgiveness of sins.
31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Israel here isnt ethnic national israel, but Gods chosen people from among all ethnic groups. Christ as their Saviour gives them repentance and the forgiveness of sins.
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roger
Right man can and will turn to the Lord because they are being turned by God, scripture:
Jer 31:18-19
I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the Lord my God.
Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.
Now the word turned in 2 Cor 3:16
Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
Its used in the active voice but subjunctive, its conditioned, the turning by the individual is conditioned on the Lord turning him, in which the turned one is passive, he has been caused to turn.
Peter used the same exact word here 1 Pet 2:25
For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
However here its in the passive voice, the cause is the Lords stripes, His death which healed him Vs 24
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed
Its the spiritual healing effected by the Cross, Christ bearing our sins, that one is turned unto the Shepherd of their soul. So Christs Death should get the credit when one turns to the Lord in 2 Cor 3:16
Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
So turning to the Lord is an evidence that the vail has been taken away by the Lord, by the Spirit
Right man can and will turn to the Lord because they are being turned by God, scripture:
Jer 31:18-19
I have surely heard Ephraim bemoaning himself thus; Thou hast chastised me, and I was chastised, as a bullock unaccustomed to the yoke: turn thou me, and I shall be turned; for thou art the Lord my God.
Surely after that I was turned, I repented; and after that I was instructed, I smote upon my thigh: I was ashamed, yea, even confounded, because I did bear the reproach of my youth.
Now the word turned in 2 Cor 3:16
Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
Its used in the active voice but subjunctive, its conditioned, the turning by the individual is conditioned on the Lord turning him, in which the turned one is passive, he has been caused to turn.
Peter used the same exact word here 1 Pet 2:25
For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.
However here its in the passive voice, the cause is the Lords stripes, His death which healed him Vs 24
Who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed
Its the spiritual healing effected by the Cross, Christ bearing our sins, that one is turned unto the Shepherd of their soul. So Christs Death should get the credit when one turns to the Lord in 2 Cor 3:16
Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
So turning to the Lord is an evidence that the vail has been taken away by the Lord, by the Spirit
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God is a spirit, and we must worship him in spirit and in truth. Sense the natural man that has not yet been born again, will not, and indeed, cannot call upon things that are spiritual, and thinks them to be foolishness. It leaves only those that have been born spiritually that will call upon a spiritual God.
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I didn't want to reply to your posts further because doing so is a waste of time and effort, but for this one (and this one alone), I feel I must, because by it you directly contradict and confront the Bible itself, in effect saying that God does not have the power, ability, or desire, to make good on His promises. Through God's power and will- and not man's - a true believe can NEVER be "led astray" into false belief: a belief not in Christ fully and completely as the Saviour and of all that pertains to Him. Should anyone who calls himself a Christian do so, it is only because they were never born again by God and never truly a Christain to begin with. The Bible sites many examples of seed that does not fall upon the good ground.
I posted these verses before but they apparently made no impression on you.
[1Pe 1:4-5 KJV]
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
I posted these verses before but they apparently made no impression on you.
[1Pe 1:4-5 KJV]
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
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Amen Jesus further clarified that the elect believer is immune to deception in Jn 10:4-5
4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
Also Matt 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.
5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.
Also Matt 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
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