Baptism….. Dunk or dry-clean.

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hornetguy

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2016
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#21
  1. to overwhelm
    "Note on Baptism in Ac. Baptism in water (such as John's) is distinguished from baptism with the Holy Spirit (i. 5, etc.). Those who receive the latter, however, may also be baptized in water (cf. xi. 16 with x. 47); and there is one example of people who had previously received John's baptism receiving Christian baptism as a preliminary to receiving the Spirit (xix. 3 ff.). John's was a baptism of repentance (xiii. 24; xix. 4), as was also Christian baptism (ii. 38), but as John's pointed forward to Jesus (xix. 4), it became obsolete when He came. Christian baptism followed faith in the Lord Jesus (xvi. 31 ff.); it was associated with His name (ii. 38; viii. 16, etc.), which was invoked by the person baptized (xxii. 16); it signified the remission (ii. 38) or washing away of sins (xxii. 16); sometimes it preceded (ii. 38; viii. 15 ff.; xix. 5), sometimes followed (x. 47 f.) the receiving of the Spirit." (F. F. Bruce. The Acts of the Apostles [Greek Text Commentary], London: Tyndale, 1952, p. 98, n. 1.)
    This word should not be confused with baptô (911). The clearest example that shows the meaning of baptizo is a text from the Greek poet and physician Nicander, who lived about 200 B.C. It is a recipe for making pickles and is helpful because it uses both words. Nicander says that in order to make a pickle, the vegetable should first be 'dipped' (baptô) into boiling water and then 'baptised' (baptizô) in the vinegar solution. Both verbs concern the immersing of vegetables in a solution. But the first is temporary. The second, the act of baptising the vegetable, produces a permanent change.
Strong’s Definitions [?](Strong’s Definitions Legend)
βαπτίζω baptízō, bap-tid'-zo; from a derivative of G911; to immerse, submerge; to make whelmed (i.e. fully wet); used only (in the New Testament) of ceremonial ablution, especially (technically) of the ordinance of Christian baptism:—Baptist, baptize, wash.
Thayer's Greek Lexicon [?](Jump to Scripture Index)
STRONGS G907:
βαπτίζω; [imperfect ἐβάπτιζον]; future βαπτίσω; 1 aorist ἐβάπτισα; passive [present βαπτίζομαι]; imperfect ἐβαπτιζόμην; perfect participle βεβαπτισμένος; 1 aorist ἐβαπτίσθην; 1 future βαπτισθήσομαι; 1 aorist middle ἐβαπτισάμην; (frequently [?] from βάπτω, like βαλλίζω from βάλλω); here and there in Plato, Polybius, Diodorus, Strabo, Josephus, Plutarch, others.
I.
1. properly, to dip repeatedly, to immerge, submerge (of vessels sunk, Polybius 1, 51, 6; 8, 8, 4; of animals, Diodorus 1, 36).
2. to cleanse by dipping or submerging, to wash, to make clean with water; in the middle and the 1 aorist passive to wash oneself, bathe; so Mark 7:4 [where WH text ῥαντίσωνται]; Luke 11:38 (2 Kings 5:14 ἐβαπτίσατο ἐν τῷ Ἰορδάνῃ, for טָבַל; Sir. 31:30 (Sir. 34:30); Judith 12:7).
3. metaphorically, to overwhelm, as ἰδιώτας ταῖς ἐισφοραῖς, Diodorus 1, 73; ὀφλήμασι, Plutarch, Galba 21; τῇ συμφορᾷ βεβαπτισμένος, Heliodorus Aeth. 2, 3; and alone, to inflict great and abounding calamities on one: ἐβάπτισαν τὴν πόλιν, Josephus, b. j. 4, 3, 3; ἡ ἀνομία με βαπτίζει, Isaiah 21:4 Sept. hence, βαπτίζεσθαι βάπτισμα (cf. Winers Grammar, 225 (211); [Buttmann, 148 (129)]; cf. λούεσθαι τὸ λουτρόν, Aelian de nat. an. 3, 42), to be overwhelmed with calamities, of those who must bear them, Matthew 20:22f Rec.; Mark 10:38; Luke 12:50 (cf. the German etwas auszubaden haben, and the use of the word e. g. respecting those who cross a river with difficulty, ἕως τῶν μαστῶν οἱ πεζοὶ βαπτιζόμενοι διέβαινον, Polybius 3, 72, 4; [for examples see Sophocles' Lexicon under the word; also T. J. Conant, Baptizein, its meaning and use, N. Y. 1864 (printed also as an Appendix to their revised version of the Gospel of Matthew by the "American Bible Union"); and especially four works by J. W. Dale entitled Classic, Judaic, Johannic, Christic, Baptism, Phil. 1867ff; D. B. Ford, Studies on the Bapt. Quest. (including a review of Dr. Dale's works), Bost. 1879]).
II. In the N. T. it is used particularly of the rite of sacred ablution, first instituted by John the Baptist, afterward by Christ's command received by Christians and adjusted to the contents and nature of their religion (see βάπτισμα, 3), viz., an immersion in water, performed as a sign of the removal of sin, and administered to those who, impelled by a desire for salvation, sought admission to the benefits of the Messiah's kingdom; [for patristic references respecting the mode, ministrant, subjects, etc. of the rite, cf. Sophocles Lexicon, under the word; Dict. of Chris. Antiq. under the word Baptism].
 

hornetguy

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2016
6,646
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#22
Water is mentioned, but the actual method of using that water is never described.
Sure it is....it is mentioned simply because of the definition of the word used.... that's what the word means.... to immerse.
 

Cameron143

Well-known member
Mar 1, 2022
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#23
Let the eisigesis begin!
Depends on what the definition of "is" is.....

Go up could also be talking about a hot air balloon..... straightway is also a part of a racetrack, so maybe they were racing in a hot air balloon....
The only point I was trying to make is that it is difficult in my opinion to come to a hard and fast conclusion.
I do think submersion is in line symbolically with Romans 6. And that's how I was baptised. But I wouldn't hold others to my conscience.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
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#24
Dunk, Sprinkle, Splash, Drip/dry …… or Dry cleaned.
After the initial baptism of the Holy Spirit (at the time of salvation), it is anything that brings to remembrance and testifies to what Christ has done for us.
 

hornetguy

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2016
6,646
1,397
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#25
The only point I was trying to make is that it is difficult in my opinion to come to a hard and fast conclusion.
I do think submersion is in line symbolically with Romans 6. And that's how I was baptised. But I wouldn't hold others to my conscience.
I think baptism by immersion is not just "symbolic"..... it is exactly what Jesus and the apostles taught, and practiced.
The baptism of the Holy Spirit is actually sort of symbolic of "baptism".... immersion... we are being immersed in the Holy Spirit.
Baptism, up until Pentecost ALWAYS meant immersion to everyone in that culture... that's all it COULD mean to them.... there was no other definition of it, other than pickling....
 
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Locoponydirtman

Guest
#26
sorry, but no.... it means "to immerse"
They even used that term when discussing pickling.... DIPPING, immersing the item into the liquid.
They also used the term for washing their dining couches.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,454
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#27
I think baptism by immersion is not just "symbolic"..... it is exactly what Jesus and the apostles taught, and practiced.
Correct. Baptism without immersion would be totally meaningless, since Christian baptism represents the full identification of the believer in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. Full immersion in water represents death, and raising up out of water represents a resurrected life. Therefore baptism is far more than a ritual. It is a physical event where the believer is telling the whole world that he or she is dead to the old life, and alive in Christ.

It is extremely sad that even those who believe in biblical baptism fail to bring out the spiritual significance of baptism. It is a commandment of Christ because it is crucial as the first step of obedience to Him, and also the first step in sanctification. Therefore it is a very powerful event in the life of a new convert. And those Hyper-Dispensationalists who reject water baptism are purely in rebellion against Christ. So are those who are sprinkling babies and infants who have no clue about what this is.

The Reformers mistakenly taught that infant baptism is the New Covenant equivalent of infant circumcision. But that is pure nonsense.
 
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Locoponydirtman

Guest
#28
Its kind of ironic to think that being baptized in the Holy Spirit is described as the Holy Spirit being poured out on the recipient, if baptize only means dipped or dunked. That act of God is never described as the person being immersed, but always rather The Spirit poured out upon.
 

SilverFox7

Well-known member
Dec 24, 2022
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Grand Rapids, Michigan
#30
The only point I was trying to make is that it is difficult in my opinion to come to a hard and fast conclusion.
I do think submersion is in line symbolically with Romans 6. And that's how I was baptised. But I wouldn't hold others to my conscience.
Well, I've been sprinkled and dunked...more importantly baptized in fire by the Holy Spirit.

Several means and perspectives as long as they lead to Jesus Christ our Lord!
 

SilverFox7

Well-known member
Dec 24, 2022
520
358
63
Grand Rapids, Michigan
#31
Correct. Baptism without immersion would be totally meaningless, since Christian baptism represents the full identification of the believer in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ. Full immersion in water represents death, and raising up out of water represents a resurrected life. Therefore baptism is far more than a ritual. It is a physical event where the believer is telling the whole world that he or she is dead to the old life, and alive in Christ.

It is extremely sad that even those who believe in biblical baptism fail to bring out the spiritual significance of baptism. It is a commandment of Christ because it is crucial as the first step of obedience to Him, and also the first step in sanctification. Therefore it is a very powerful event in the life of a new convert. And those Hyper-Dispensationalists who reject water baptism are purely in rebellion against Christ. So are those who are sprinkling babies and infants who have no clue about what this is.

The Reformers mistakenly taught that infant baptism is the New Covenant equivalent of infant circumcision. But that is pure nonsense.
Old man goes into the grave. New man immerses in the power of the Spirit and Jesus.

Full immersion best symbolizes our transformation as God's children
 

HealthAndHappiness

Well-known member
Jul 7, 2022
8,134
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Almost Heaven West Virginia
#32
John 3:23

"And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized."

There would be no reason for John to go there if he practiced sprinkling.

Also the Evangelist Philip after the Eunuch believed on Jesus and was saved, then they both went down into the water and he baptized (literally immersed) him. Acts 8

"And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him."

A sprinkling can be done with a canteen or from the shore. They both went down into the water....
  1. And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
  2. 38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
 
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Locoponydirtman

Guest
#33
John 3:23

"And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized."

There would be no reason for John to go there if he practiced sprinkling.

Also the Evangelist Philip after the Eunuch believed on Jesus and was saved, then they both went down into the water and he baptized (literally immersed) him. Acts 8

"And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him."

A sprinkling can be done with a canteen or from the shore. They both went down into the water....
  1. And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
  2. 38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
Emmerses is not specifically formulated in either text. Where it is believed that John Baptized Jesus the water was only about knee deep, and its likely John was pouring water over those he baptized. (As seen in much of the old paintings). Much like the ritual washing of hand where water was poured over hands held in a verticle postion. If one bother to read other sources where things are described such as the Didache, the exact prescriptions are layed out. The Bible how ever is not so prescriptive as to methods likely because it was the disciples and their disciples doing as they were instructed directly. The thing is, that the word definition is faorly broad. You see it used for many things from ritual washing to dipping things to ordinary washing, and even pouring over. The baptizm of the Holy Spirit is that the Spirit is poured out on the people. The idea of emmersion only is pure inference. And even worse about those making the inference they dont believe baptism is anything.
 
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Locoponydirtman

Guest
#34
And then there is this passage.
Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them. Then you shall dwell in the land that I gave to your fathers; you shall be My people, and I will be your God.
Ezekiel 36:25‭-‬28 NKJV
https://bible.com/bible/114/ezk.36.25-28.NKJV
 
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Locoponydirtman

Guest
#35
Water is mentioned, but the actual method of using that water is never described.
You are correct. No actual formula is described nor prescribed. We only have the definition of the word as gained from context of its use; which is used to mean wash, dip, poured, and even sprinkle. What we do have is what baptism actually does, very well defined, but the method is left a bit nebulous.
 
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Locoponydirtman

Guest
#36
Let the eisigesis begin!
Depends on what the definition of "is" is.....

Go up could also be talking about a hot air balloon..... straightway is also a part of a racetrack, so maybe they were racing in a hot air balloon....
Pot calling the kettle black.

Gone up out of the water could easily mean walked up out of the water on to the shore as one usually does, when they walk up out of a river. Because i have never heard of anykne just staying down in the river.

Kind of like normal language use. An Example might be, I was fish the other day and when i came up out of the water there were deer tracks in the sand.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
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#37
Gone up out of the water could easily mean walked up out of the water on to the shore as one usually does, when they walk up out of a river. Because i have never heard of anykne just staying down in the river.
What you seem to be forgetting is that for any other mode of baptism, going into the water would be unnecessary. A bucket of water on the beach or shore would suffice. Here's the meaning of baptism:

Strong's Concordance
baptisma: (the result of) a dipping or sinking
Original Word: βάπτισμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: baptisma
Phonetic Spelling: (bap'-tis-mah)
Definition: (the result of) a dipping or sinking

Usage: the rite or ceremony of baptism

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 908: βάπτισμα
βάπτισμα, βαπτίσματος, τό (βαπτίζω), a word peculiar to N. T. and ecclesiastical writings, immersion, submersion;


Immersion or submersion means going under the water and being immersed or submersed in water.

CASE CLOSED! Just move on!
 
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Locoponydirtman

Guest
#38
What you seem to be forgetting is that for any other mode of baptism, going into the water would be unnecessary. A bucket of water on the beach or shore would suffice. Here's the meaning of baptism:

Strong's Concordance
baptisma: (the result of) a dipping or sinking
Original Word: βάπτισμα, ατος, τό
Part of Speech: Noun, Neuter
Transliteration: baptisma
Phonetic Spelling: (bap'-tis-mah)
Definition: (the result of) a dipping or sinking

Usage: the rite or ceremony of baptism

Thayer's Greek Lexicon
STRONGS NT 908: βάπτισμα
βάπτισμα, βαπτίσματος, τό (βαπτίζω), a word peculiar to N. T. and ecclesiastical writings, immersion, submersion;


Immersion or submersion means going under the water and being immersed or submersed in water.

CASE CLOSED! Just move on!
Niether Thayer nor Strong is scripture.
Many times baptizo is used for simply common washing, such as tables and dinning utensils, and even a brazen basin.
Also baptism of the Holy Spirit is described in scripture as The Spirit being poured out on someone.
Context of scripture is more important than men with their agendas.
Case closed, move on. Yourself.