Baptism, the simple version.

Never said that Acts 2:38 or 10:45 were in the plural (gifts). Where I mentioned plurality of gifts, I was referencing what is taught in 1 Cor. 12. The Spirit gives to each the gifts that He would have us to have.

When you said: "Both remittance of sin, brought about by God, in accordance with obedience to His command of baptism, and receiving the Holy Spirit are revealed as essential elements of the rebirth."

Remittance of sin is indeed brought about by God - through the person and work of Jesus Christ. This was accomplished by Him in Justifying those He died for. It is in no way dependent upon ones Baptism. If one has been justified then that one's sin (sins), are remitted.

Acts 2:38 and 39 - have nothing in common with what is taught in John 3:3-10. The new birth being discussed herein, must take place before anything else can. It is the Sovereign work of the Spirit upon a person. At the time it is being accomplished, the person receiving is "passive". You fail to see the distinction between what happens in John 3:3-10 and the events written of in the book of Acts. In John 3:3-10, Jesus lays down the need for what is spoken of in Eze. 11:19, wherein, three times, in this one verse, Jehovah says what He will do - not what we will do in concert with Him.

In acts 2 and 10, as well as other references, we have the fulfillment of what our Lord promised His disciples and thus, all believers. The presence of the Comforter, (Holy Spirit), during His absence. This speaks of the Holy Spirit's ministry in believer's lives not the new birth. While it is common today, to hear the two taught as if they were/are the same, they are indeed not.

Scripture states that the Pharisees and teachers of the OT law rejected the counsel of God refusing to submit to John's baptism. (Luke 7:30)

Luke 7:29 - When all the people and the tax collectors heard this, they justified God/acknowledged God's justice, (signified by) having been baptized with the baptism of John. 30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers rejected God's purpose for themselves, (signified by) not having been baptized by John. Becoming a disciple of John was a heart decision made prior to receiving water baptism.

Jesus addressed/answered this when he asked a rhetorical question of the chief priests and scribes in Luke 20:4

4The baptism of John, was it from heaven, or of men?

In your post #200, You stated, "It must be noted here - That this falling/receiving of the Holy Spirit - in both Acts 2:38 and Acts 10:44 is the bestowal of gifts upon the believers of the early Church and is the fulfillment of Jesus' promise in Acts 1:5 & 8. However, this is not the "New Birth" or "Being born from above" of John 3:3-10.

I find it interesting that people refuse to accept what is so obvious in the detailed conversion accounts of the Acts of the Apostles. The God-designed rebirth clearly parallels the elements He put in place regarding one's natural birth. (Rom. 1:20) Birth requires coming out of the waters of the womb. And drawing in life sustaining air (a picture of receiving the Holy Spirit into the body) in order to become a viable human being.

The Acts account at Pentecost is clear. The group asked what was required of them. And they accepted Peter's message, and complied with the command relevant to repentance and water. Obviously, the group believed, as promised, that they would at some point receive the Spirit as verse 41 states 3,000 were added to the body:

"Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls." (Acts 2:38-41)

What many fail to realize is that man trusts God and takes a step of faith, but it is God who brings about the reality promised.

The OT records many foreshadows that point to the NT reality.
In the very beginning, the Spirit of God hovered over the water and brought forth light and life.
The flood washed away sinful man and propelled Noah and his family to a new beginning.
Elijah smote the water and crossed over just before the chariot arrived to take him into Heaven.
The ashes of the sacrificed Red Heifer were mixed into water and applied to purify sinful man.
The Israelites experienced the salvation of God when He made a way of escape. They went through the parted Red Sea crossing over to the other side.
God parted the waters for Joshua along with those who had wandered in the wilderness (a picture of the old life) in order for them to enter the Promised Land.

Jesus provided the NT reality of the OT foreshadow. Jesus told John the Baptist to baptize Him in order to fulfill all righteousness. The Spirit of God expressed His pleasure with Jesus' act of obedience to water baptism. God acknowledged Jesus as His Son, "This is my Son in whom I am well pleased." (Matt. 3:17)

That is a very good point. I would accept that as Divine authority.

You stated in your previous post:

I find it interesting that people refuse to accept what is so obvious in the detailed conversion accounts of the Acts of the Apostles. The God-designed rebirth clearly parallels the elements He put in place regarding one's natural birth. (Rom. 1:20) Birth requires coming out of the waters of the womb. And drawing in life sustaining air (a picture of receiving the Holy Spirit into the body) in order to become a viable human being.

What I find interesting, is so many people refuse to accept the obvious from what is taught in John 3:3-10. In order that one may "SEE" and "ENTER" the Kingdom of God, (John 3:3 & 5), one must be "born anew". Jesus Christ was the Kingdom of God on earth. Therefore, in order to see and enter into Him, one must be "born anew". Because, what is flesh is flesh and what is spirit is spirit.

John 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

If one is not "born of the Spirit, then that one has a "natural mind" (born of the flesh is flesh), and the natural mind does not discern the things that are spiritual in nature. (1 Cor. 2:14). Without this discernment, one cannot properly understand the Gospel and the need for it's message.

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born anew.

The persons that are born of the flesh, had no decision or part in their conception. They had no choice as to whom their mother and father would be. They could not say, "I do not want to be born". or "I want to be born." Their life, if you will, was completely decided outside of their decision or will.

John 3:8 The wind bloweth where it will, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but knowest not whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that has been born of the Spirit.

In this same way, John 3:8, teaches the Sovereign Work of the Spirit. He moves as He wills and comes to those that He wills. We have no more say so in being born from above, than we had in our physical birth. This is the proper understanding of the parallel of the "two" births. First, physical - second, spiritual.

This fact is further backed-up, by the writers choice of word in the Greek. The Greek word translated in verse 8, as" "has been born", is the word: γεγεννημενος. It is a Perfect. Passive. Participle of: γεννάω. The perfect tense emphasizes the verbs past action and it's continuing results but the part we should pay close attention to, is the passive voice. This means the recipient is not active in it's taking effect. The recipient receives this new birth in the same manner as one received their physical birth. They were acted upon but had no say in it's action. If it were in the "active voice", then we would say that they birthed themselves.

Enochanti wrote:
The existence of God answers the atheists who says there is no God and the lordship and sovereignty of God answers the word of faith adherent who in their core teachings deny the sovereignty of God by claiming God needs man’s permission before he can operate in this world. But that is not the God of the Bible for the God of the Bible is Lord over all.

In the receiving of the Holy Spirit, in the Book of Acts, as I stated earlier, was the blessing promised by Jesus and why the disciples were told to tarry until Pentecost. At Pentecost, the fledgling church was empowered with the various gifts needed for it's early earthly ministry. In Acts 1:5, this is called the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" and is not referred to as the "New Birth".

We must remember, the NT Scriptures did not yet exist. The preaching of the Gospel, needed to be authenticated with signs and wonders because it was proclaimed by word of mouth without any written prooftext, except when the OT passages were referenced. Jesus Christ's ministry was also authenticated in a similar manner. So too, Moses' ministry before Pharaoh.

Those that the Holy Spirit fell upon, were already in a "born anew" position and were partakers of the Faith. The Sovereignty of God's Grace, is shown throughout the Book of Acts: (KJV)

Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
Acts 2:47 Praising God, and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
Acts 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

Lydia - was a business woman of purple dye and may have been a Jewish woman or at least a proselyte because the Scripture says she worshipped or was a devout woman before God. This proves she knew of the God of Israel but like Israel, was worshipping out of an incorrect knowledge. At this time, she knew not Jesus Christ whom Paul had come to proclaim. Scripture says that the Lord opened her heart (the New Birth), and subsequent to this event, she gave head to what Paul proclaimed.

But this takes us away from the discussion of Baptism and it's purpose and enters into the Sovereign work of God in Salvation.

Yes, and this is why I said #2 in my earlier post. It might have been to pave the way for another. I think the proper way to look at this, is: That the Father revealed the plan for Baptism to John and it was used to pave the way fir His Son. Thus, both #1 and #2.

It is now an ordinance for Christ's Assembly. An ordinance that transitioned us from the Old Testament to the New and so much more.

Just one statement you made, copied below, which I assume you are referring to Acts 2 and not 10, because you then cited passages from Acts 2. In both cases, the Holy Spirit fell unilaterally without the laying on of the apostle's hands first, and did so as a sign to those present as heavenly validation of what was occurring, but those in Acts 10 were not yet baptized believers as were those in Acts 2. Just wanted to make this point so your statement would not be misinterpreted by other readers. Correct me if I'm wrong in your intent.


"Those that the Holy Spirit fell upon, were already in a "born anew" position and were partakers of the Faith. The Sovereignty of God's Grace, is shown throughout the Book of Acts: (KJV)"

No - I meant the sentence as posted. It does not matter if we are talking about Acts 2 or Acts 10 - the Holy Spirit fell upon those who were already born anew (Regenerated). Regeneration is a prerequisite to believing. Believing is a prerequisite to Repentance. Believing and repentance are a prerequisite to water Baptism.

The Baptism of the Spirit is a Sovereign work of the Spirit, who is sent by Jesus Christ, at the proper time and place. This is the Father's Plan and the Three are of One Accord.

While water Baptism, can be given to one who is not a true believer - the Baptism of the Spirit never lands on an unbeliever. Water Baptism is fallible because it is administered by man. Spirit Baptism is infallible because it is administered by God.

Question to you - Does Scripture teach Collective Baptism of the Spirit or Individual Baptism of the Spirit?

Simple answer is in Acts 2 :38 which tells you when we individually receive the indwelling of the Spirit: the same time we're baptized, at the point that our sins are remitted and we're saved and added to the body of Christ by the Lord which is his church per Acts 2:47. Born again. So therefore you're not looking at Acts 10 correctly.

Unlike man's natural birth, God gives those living in the NT the choice whether to accept or reject the reality of being born again. Scripture confirms obedience to God's commands is key; He changes not.

The experience of being born again is not possible without first believing in Jesus and His sacrifice that paid the penalty for all of mankind.

Those living in the NT that believe and obey the instructions given at Pentecost will receive the spiritual rebirth referenced by Jesus in John 3:3-5. Also relevant to the topic is that Calling upon the name of the Lord is the appeal made when one obeys the command to be baptized in water in the name of Jesus. This is specifically referenced in Acts 22:16; "Why tarriest thou, arise and be baptized and wash away thy sins calling upon the name of the Lord." Jesus prophesied that repentance and remission of sin would be preached in His name beginning in Jerusalem. (Luke 24:47-49) The command to repent, and be baptized (water) in the name of Jesus took place on the Day of Pentecost. (Acts 2:37-38)

BUT THEY HAVE NOT ALL OBEYED...


"I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life..." Deut 30:19

"He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day." John 12:48


"For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for THE SAME LORD over all is rich unto all that CALL UPON HIM.
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
BUT THEY HAVE NOT ALL OBEYED THE GOSPEL. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Rom 10:11-17


So hear and obey the word of God...
"Why tarriest thou, arise and be baptized and wash away thy sins calling upon the name of the Lord." (Acts 22:16)

"Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,..."

"...they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus...(Acts 8:12-17)

"To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins...
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we?
And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord... (Acts 10:43, 47-48)

"...When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus..." Acts 19:2-6

You continue to post the same circle, while not replying to what I am actually posting. Therefore, I don't see how the conversation can progress nor how it can serve any real purpose.

We, each, receive the gift of the Spirit individually per Acts 2:38. That is not the baptism of the spirit such as in Acts 2 on the day of Pentecost.

That and Acts 10 are 2 unique events that happened twice per the scriptures in this unique fashion and doesn't happen today.

The Holy Spirit fell unilaterally on individuals as a sign and validation of those events which in both cases, the church was initiated.

Any other time the spirit fell miraculously in the form of a gift was as the result of the laying on of the apostle's hands.

Happened twice in biblical times, and doesn't happen today.

Better?

Being born again requires all that was initially revealed on the Day of Pentecost. Those who believed the message concerning Jesus were commanded to repent, have their sins washed away through obedience to the command to be baptized in Jesus name and be indwelt by the Holy Spirit. It was only after belief and obedience to the entire message that individual's were added to the body.

Although many refuse to accept it, the essential elements of the rebirth are consistent as referenced elsewhere in scripture:

The necessity to believe Jesus was who He said He was.
Repentance, one's willingness to change direction in pursuit of God
Having one's sins remitted in baptism; made possible through the shed blood of Jesus
Being indwelt with the Spirit

Scripture is clear, no one will enter the kingdom of God without first being born again.

I appreciate your extensive reply but I would have appreciated it even more if you had responded directly to my in-depth explanation. I laid down clearly, as to why one needs to be born anew before they can believe. However, you did not respond to my points. Instead, you quoted many verses from Acts and gave your interpretation but you do not answer why some believe and others do not. This is vital to understanding God's Grace. You even used some of the verses out of context. Example:

"Why tarriest thou, arise and be baptized and wash away thy sins calling upon the name of the Lord." (Acts 22:16)

This verse is not a verse about how Baptism or Salvation works. Paul is recounting what happened to him personally and there is no doubt who moved first upon Saul. Saul was neither seeking Jesus for redemption nor was he looking to become a Christian. However, the Lord had other plans for Saul and He did not ask if it was okay with him. Due to the Fall of mankind - all matters dealing with Salvation start with God. The Lord DOES and we REACT - it is not that we DO and the Lord REACTS. How many examples does one need to come to that realization.

- When Moses was sent to set God's people free, did God ask Moses if he was okay with that?
- Did Aaron volunteer to go with Moses? Or did God say take him?
- Has God ever asked a Prophet of the OT if they wanted to be a Prophet?
- Did an OT Prophet ever ask God if they could be a Prophet?
- When Noah was shut-up into the Ark, did Noah have anything to do with the timing of the Ark being shut?

Your view, as expressed in your post, is a well known one. It has it's roots in Jacobus Arminius but still the question remains. Who makes one to differ from another?

BUT THEY HAVE NOT ALL OBEYED...

I ask why not?

BUT THEY HAVE NOT ALL OBEYED THE GOSPEL. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?

The Prophet said to the Lord - I preached to them but who hath believed? Again why not?

So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Rom 10:11-17

So faith comes or grows from what is heard and what is heard is the Gospel. BUT who gives the hearing or the better translation is "understanding"? Proverbs 20:12 The hearing ear, and the seeing eye, the LORD hath made even both of them.

This is a common expression of our Lord: Mat_11:15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear. Used 8 times in the Gospels and in the singular form "ear", used 8 times in the Book of Revelation. The Divine commentary is found here:

Mat 13:13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:15 For this people's heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
Mat 13:16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.

Thanks. I agree that Pentecost and what occurred in Acts 10 are the two Baptismal events. The are corporate in nature. At Pentecost the Jews were Baptized into the Spirit or if one refers - immersed into the power of the Spirit. In chapter 10, it the same thing to the Gentiles. Thus, to the Jew first - then the Gentiles. Therefore, the whole of the church was Baptized in these two events. everywhere else in Scripture, when Baptism of the Spirit is being discussed, it always looks to the past.

As to individual baptism in the Spirit - I don't think there is enough evidence to suggest individual Baptism in the Spirit - those verses seem to imply more of blessing or filling of one with the gifts of the Spirit. I agree, this is not taking place today.

However, this is not my point of contention.

You keep saying, that what took place in Acts, is the fulfillment of John 3:3-10. It is not. It is the fulfillment of the following:

John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
John 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 14:25 These things have I spoken unto you, while yet abiding with you.
John 14:26 But the Comforter, even the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said unto you.

John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall bear witness of me:

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth: It is expedient for you that I go away; for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I go, I will send him unto you.

Act 1:5 for John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized in the Holy Spirit not many days hence

Act 1:8 But ye shall receive power, when the Holy Spirit is come upon you: and ye shall be my witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea and Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

Pentecost was the partial fulfillment of this promise but this has nothing to do with John 3:3-10. Every believer from the first days of the OT to the NT church age have experienced the New Birth, It is God moving upon the fallen person and regenerating them to spiritual life. The giving of a new nature, a new heart, hearing ears and seeing eyes. This is why our Lord asked this question:

John 3:10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou the teacher of Israel, and do not understand these things?