Hebrews 6

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Cameron143

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Oops, I misquoted 1 Tim 4:1 which should be, "Now the Spirit speaketh expressly that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and the doctrines of devils."
Departing from the faith is a separate thing from saving faith. The faith is merely a set of beliefs. Faith that is exercised during salvation is by grace and specific to the salvation experience.
One can practice the tenets of the faith and not possess genuine faith. In fact, that's exactly what Hebrews 6 is referring to.
 

Mem

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Hebrews 11:6 explains what faith is, and who those without faith are...

And without faith it is impossible to please God, because anyone who approaches Him must believe that He exists and that He rewards those who earnestly seek Him.

So those without faith either; 1.) Do not believe He actually exists and nor/or believe that 2.) He personally values those who (note qualification) earnestly seek Him because that is the character of God. IOW, they don't know Him.

This is exactly what was being discussed in John 7:26-9

Yet here He is, speaking publicly, and they are not saying anything to Him. Have the rulers truly recognized that this is the Christ?

But we know where this man is from. When the Christ comes, no one will know where He is from.”

Then Jesus, still teaching in the temple courts, cried out, “You know Me, and you know where I am from. I have not come of My own accord, but He who sent Me is true. You do not know Him,

but I know Him, because I am from Him and He sent Me.”
 

Evmur

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Belief, which entails obedience and on going faithfulness unto death, not falling away unto unbelief as was warned of in Heb 6 to the newly converted Jews. Salvation isn't osas and must be worked upon to secure it, being faithful unto death.

Phil 2:12

Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
Paul doesn't say work out your own damnation or your own condemnation with fear and trembling. He says work out your own salvation.

You are saved so now work on it.

Hebrews 4-6-10 do not say anyone who has been saved can be damned, it speaks about the sorry consequence of wilful sin.

Since folk like to quote Hebrews why don't they quote 10. 14
for by a single offering He has PERFECTED FOR ALL TIME those who are sanctified.

See your interpretation not only contradicts all of Paul's doctrines but also Hebrews itself, Paul is not the author of Hebrews.

It's important to know that Paul is not the author of Hebrews because Paul is apostle to the Gentiles. He had revelations far, far above any revelation the other apostles had. He had perfect understanding of how the gospel works out for the Jews and for the Gentiles.

Only a Hebrew Christian could go back to the Old Covenant with it's law keeping and sacrifices. We Gentiles were never under the law. Our salvation rests purely upon God's grace through faith.

God's grace it's FREE. You's accusing God of being a snake oil salesman. Selling you a FREE salvation and then demanding a price. God does no such thing. You'll backslide sure as eggs if you entertain such views about God.

You'll never do a deed good enough nor will you ever obey the commandments sufficient enough to merit your salvation. Forget about it. Trust in Christ only to save you by His indwelling. THAT'S what we need to work on, how to make SURE Christ does indeed dwell in us and manifest Himself in our life. He will do so in all holiness and cleanliness and power.

All else is the intrusion of the flesh and will lead to backsliding.
 

Evmur

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So, if a saved believer were to denounce Jesus and fell away thereby doing, would he be still saved? This is exactly what Hebrews 6 is warning of. If you denounce the Lord, you put him to an open shame! Are you still saved? According to you, you are! Better think that through again.
Such a one has once and for all time put their lives into the hands of Almighty God, those verses warn against turning back for we will still be in God's hands, now not for blessing but for chastisement.

Chastisement may be severe it may even end in physical death ... best not to go there. But it cannot end in damnation.
 

glf

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1 Jn 5: 16, 17 KJV "If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin and there is a sin not unto death."

This is an awesome truth. We're able to move the Lord into giving life unto the brethren who do not sin unto death. It is so much better than gossip as life is better than sin unto death!
 

mailmandan

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1 Jn 5: 16, 17 KJV "If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say he shall pray for it. All unrighteousness is sin and there is a sin not unto death."

This is an awesome truth. We're able to move the Lord into giving life unto the brethren who do not sin unto death. It is so much better than gossip as life is better than sin unto death!
Physical death (1 Corinthians 11:30) or spiritual death? (Revelation 2:11) Some people jump to the conclusion that John is talking about believers committing certain sins that lead them to spiritual death, but that does not seem to fit the context.

1 John 5:16 - If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. There is sin leading to death. I do not say that he should pray about that. 17 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death. 18 We know that whoever is born of God does not sin; but he who has been born of God keeps himself, and the wicked one does not touch him.
 

JohnRH

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I was raised Southern Baptist and was taught once saved always saved. I understand that nothing can take you from God's hand, however can you leave of your own volition? Hebrews 6:4-6 posted below seem to say that it is possible to leave the faith and that once you do it's not possible to return. Am I reading this wrong?


“4. For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5. and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6. and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame" (Heb 6:4-6, NASB)

Shared using AndBible: Bible Study. (https://andbible.github.io)
It's not saying that it's impossible for them to repent. It's saying that it's impossible for US to renew them again unto repentance by laying again the foundation (verse 1). The first word in verse 4 is "for", which ties vv 4-6 back to what precedes it. If they die in their current unrepentant state, they go to heaven because they're saved.
 

CS1

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Do you think I believe otherwise?
You said:
Pretty sure the manifestation of His love is the cross, not hell.


Did I suggest anything in my comments that suggested His love manifested in hell? Please clarify your point. :)
 

Cameron143

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You said:
Pretty sure the manifestation of His love is the cross, not hell.


Did I suggest anything in my comments that suggested His love manifested in hell? Please clarify your point. :)
I knew better than to engage. My apologies. Blessings.
 

glf

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Rom 11: 20-22 KJV "Well, because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not high minded, but fear: for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare thee. Behold therefor the goodness and severity of God: unto them that fell, severity; but towards thee goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shall be cut off.

Gal 5:4 KJV "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace."
 

Angela53510

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I too was raised S Bapt. Every Sunay was a salvation message because teaching wasn't important, only salvation. When I joined the Navy, I believed OSAS near as much as I believed in Jesus as my savior. I remember telling my shipmates, how I could have two buttons before me and pushing the one could kill every person in the world and still be saved. Then I could push the other and kill myself and then go be with Jesus forever in Heaven.

Then I got into the scriptures and when I read Heb 6: 4-6 I was devastated and wept before the Lord for three days. Then I remember asking the Lord; If it's not OSAS, what is it? I read the new testament through many times with just that one question in my mind. Scripture is spiritually discerned and the natural man is not able to be a partaker of the Holy Spirit, so that this passage in Heb 6 can only be referring to one who was born of the Spirit! I don't know how many times I've been told that they never were saved. This is just changing scripture to prove one's own doctrine at the expense of the truth!

I found the answer to be that we must keep the faith unto the end. A study on stumbling vs falling is incredibly illuminating to those who seek the Lord's truth.

There are so many scriptures that teach this that I am unable to understand how anyone can believe OSAS and actually know the scriptures.

Scripture teaches us that Calvin knows nothing yet as he ought to know. And again, Let God be true and every man a liar.

Gal 5: 4 "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law, ye are fallen from grace." The Lord is not lying to us here or trying to scare us into obedience! Remember, let God be true and every man a liar!

How many babes in Christ allow their faith in Jesus to wither and die, thinking all the while that they're safe and secure no matter what they do; like blaspheming the Spirit of the Lord or by denying Jesus before man so that Jesus will deny him before our heavenly Father or even by rewriting the book of Revelations while leaving out selected portions, sadly!

If you really want the truth, then see Is 28: 9, 10 KJV "Whom shall he teach knowledge? And whom shall he make to understand doctrine? Them that are weaned from the milk and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little." Then your knowledge and doctrines will slowly change as more and more illumination and revelation of the Spirit are added unto you. If not, then something is wrong and it's not the Lord!!!

Again! You have made a doctrine out of one verse! Gal 5 is about Judaism and going back to the law. The entire book is about Paul writing to Judaizers!

"I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you to live in the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let them be under God’s curse!9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let them be under God’s curse!" Gal 1:6-9

The minute I saw the abbreviation for Galatians, I think , "Judiazers" and "another gospel" the entire book is one letter. It deals with one issue! People thinking they will lose their salvation if they aren't circumcised. But in Acts 15, the First Church Council resolved that Gentiles didn't need to be circumcised. Paul talks about Jew & Greek. Paul is explaining a basic concept, which by pulling out one verse, you obviously don't understand, you miss the point of the whole book!

"So in Christ Jesus you are all children of God through faith, 27 for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.28 There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 If you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise." Gal 3:26-29

"Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. 5 For through the Spirit we eagerly await by faith the righteousness for which we hope.6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision has any value. The only thing that counts is faith expressing itself through love." Gal 5:2-5

Read Gal 5:4 in context. Not just of the passage above, but of the whole book of Galatians. Paul is warning people not to desert the true gospel, because evil men are trying to pull them back to being Jews only. These people are not committing wanton sin, but stupid sin. They are trying to earn their salvation by works of the law. They are over zealous, having run into some Pharisees, trying to get back lost Jews, and trying even to convert Gentiles to Judaism. They aren't the same religion. You cannot be both a follower of Judaism and Christ. One is works of the law, the other is grace.

My suggestion is to get a modern translation of the Bible, read up on the background. Then read Galatians through straight 5 times. Don't pull one verse out of context to support your erroneous belief! You have committed eisegesis by pulling verse 4 out of chapter 5.

As for Isa 28, I have no idea what you are trying to say. Do you know what Isaiah is about? Try reading chapter 1!

"4 Woe to the sinful nation,
a people whose guilt is great,
a brood of evildoers,
children given to corruption!
They have forsaken the Lord;
they have spurned the Holy One of Israel
and turned their backs on him." Isa1:4

The whole book is about sin, of all the surrounding nations, and Israel. It is also about the coming Messiah. As for Isa 28, did you read the whole chapter, before pulling verses 9, 10 out of context?

"Woe to the Leaders of Ephraim and Judah"

Chapter 28 chastises Judah and Ephraim, but God gives beautiful hope!

"5 In that day the Lord Almighty
will be a glorious crown,
a beautiful wreath
for the remnant of his people.
6 He will be a spirit of justice
to the one who sits in judgment,
a source of strength
to those who turn back the battle at the gate." Isa 28:5-6

Your verses are not to stand in isolation to back your poor hermeneutics. Instead, CONTEXT!

"9 Who is it he is trying to teach?
To whom is he explaining his message?
To children weaned from their milk,
to those just taken from the breast?
10 For it is:
Do this, do that,
a rule for this, a rule for that
a little here, a little there.”

11 Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues
God will speak to this people,
12 to whom he said,
“This is the resting place, let the weary rest”;
and, “This is the place of repose”—
but they would not listen.
13 So then, the word of the Lord to them will become:
Do this, do that,
a rule for this, a rule for that;
a little here, a little there—
so that as they go they will fall backward;
they will be injured and snared and captured." Isa 29:9-13

A rule for this, a rule for that is not a good thing. Verse 13 explains it is a trap & a snare.

It grieves my heart to see how badly people like you have been taught. Understanding the Bible isn't about pulling isolated verse out and twisting it to support your point. It's about understanding the passage, the chapter, the book, the Testament or Covenant.
Preachers need to stop preaching their favourite verses & start teaching people how to read &interpret the Bible for themselves. How? By reading it in context. By understanding the biblical background. You have shown exactly nothing in your post.
Cont'd
 

Angela53510

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“I thank my God every time I remember you. 4 In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy 5 because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, 6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus." Phil 1:3-6

God is going to hold onto you. He is going to complete the work in you. Paul has every confidence that every blood bought sinner will become " mature, whole complete," as verse 6 says. You cannot grow in Christ if you make salvation about your efforts, your works!

Time to mature & realize how to be mature, you need to walk with Christ. He will be the one carrying you!

There is a word in Greek which is peripateto. It has 2 meanings. "Walk, live" when you walk with Christ, you live! When you live, it is because you are walking with Christ!

"Follow God’s example, therefore, as dearly loved children 2 and walk in the way of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God." Eph 5:1-2

"If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin." 1 John 1:6-7

What do the next verses say? That if we sin, we will be thrown into darkness, with much bashing and grinding of teeth? No!

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:9

We can be assured of our salvation, if we only read the Bible the way it was meant to be read- in context. And in a modern version we can understand! I speak or read 6 languages! I can't understand the KJV you quote above. Read in modern English, that is your heart language. Some people can become mature reading KJV. I am not one of them, and neither are you! Trust God's power & strength! Trust that God is never going to let you go!


I am touched that God spoke to you through Hebrews 6:4-6 and convicted you of unrighteousness. And how as believers, we should not turn back! In fact, how could we? God has either changed us, or he has not. He seemed to change you! I rejoice that you were truly convicted of sin! But now, let's look back to the opening verse of Chapter 6 of Hebrews. What does it say?

"Therefore let us move beyond the elementary teachings about Christ and be taken forward to maturity," Hebrews 6:1.

Have you moved on to maturity? Or are you stuck in verses 4-6? The author of Hebrews wants people to stop standing back on the day they were saved, and get past the day of salvation, and move on. Have you memorized Eph 2?

"But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7 in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do." Eph 2:4-10

We do not save ourselves by works, or by not sinning. Only God takes us from death to life! Moving into maturity means understanding that! You cannot grow in Christ if you make salvation about your efforts, your works! Time to mature & realize how to be mature, you need to walk with Christ. He will be the one carrying you!

There is a word in Greek which is peripateto. (περιπατἐω in Greek) It has 2 meanings. "Walk, live" when you walk with Christ, you live! When you live, it is because you are walking with Christ!

"Follow God’s example, therefore, as dearly loved children 2 and walk in the way of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God." Eph 5:1-2

"If we claim to have fellowship with him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live out the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin." 1 John 1:6-7

What do the next verses say? That if we sin, we will be thrown into darkness, with much bashing and grinding of teeth? No!

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:9

We can be assured of our salvation, if we only read the Bible the way it was meant to be read- in context. And in a modern version we can understand! I speak or read 6 languages! I can't understand the KJV you quote above. Read in modern English, that is your heart language. Some people can become mature reading KJV. I am not one of them, and neither are you! Trust God's power & strength! Trust that God is never going to let you go!

"I thank my God every time I remember you. 4 In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy 5 because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, 6 being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus." Phil 1:3-6

God is going to hold onto you. He is going to complete the work in you. Paul has every confidence that every blood bought sinner will become " mature, whole complete," as verse 6 says.

You cannot grow in Christ if you make salvation about your efforts, your works!

Time to mature & realize how to be mature, you need to walk with Christ. He will be the one carrying you!

"Follow God’s example, therefore, as dearly loved children 2 and walk in the way of love, just as Christ loved us and gave himself up for us as a fragrant offering and sacrifice to God." Eph 5:1-2

We can be assured of our salvation, if we only read the Bible the way it was meant to be read- in context. And in a modern version we can understand! I speak or read 6 languages! I can't understand the KJV you quote above. Read in modern English, that is your heart language. Some people can become mature reading KJV. I am not one of them, and neither are you! Trust God's power & strength! Trust that God is never going to let you go!

"But we have this treasure in jars of clay to show that this all-surpassing power is from God and not from us. 8 We are hard pressed on every side, but not crushed; perplexed, but not in despair; 9 persecuted, but not abandoned; struck down, but not destroyed. 10 We always carry around in our body the death of Jesus, so that the life of Jesus may also be revealed in our body. 11 For we who are alive are always being given over to death for Jesus’ sake, so that his life may also be revealed in our mortal body. 12 So then, death is at work in us, but life is at work in you." 2 Cor 4:7-12

"Therefore we do not lose heart. Though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day. 17 For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all. 18 So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen, since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal." 2 Cor 4:16-18
 
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If a person believes, actually believes, then how can I have more power than the "purging power of Christ" that will perform a work and "fulfill it to the uttermost"? If I am prepared to be conformed to the image of Christ, how can I stop the conforming? Rebellion? If I have believed, do I believe in vain, thinking Christ is doing the work in me, to the uttermost? Or am I the one who changes me by belief?

This argument is circular. There is no openly understood English from a bible, that is obviously clear, other than, believers will continue to persevere until death, becoming more and more holy as they go on, ideally being instantly free of sinful behavior's, but for many it is a learning curve and addictions are to be broken etc. Those that do not choose to turn from sin, willingly, and choose to continue to willfully sin, or slip into a life of sin in darkness and ignorance, are said to not be saved. But, again, it is not obviously clear, because, in the NT, there are believers who sin and die or "sleep", who may not intend to sin but do so from ignorance by profaning the bread/wine service etc. But they seem to have faith in Jesus, but seem judged by God, as they have not judged themselves. Judged to be punished as "sons adopted", or judged for "hell"? Paul seems to imply, they do believe, so, does this mean they are killed to stop them being sinners, and are now free from being profaners/sinners, free to be with Christ as being clean, or are they in hell? The clarity in English is not clear to me, and seems circular.

I have tried to get around this issue, but a sign of a believer, so that I may know, in myself, is that I will persevere, but will have to suffer the flesh until death. Some say that can a person who is sinful, who has a stroke which lead into sin, be unsaved, or a person who decides to kill people with dementia from whatever cause? At what level is the person not accountable for their actions? At what measuring bar does a person lose salvation? Is it a choice to turn away, or a sin that lures the person away as a captive (that God says they have power over but are ignorant of this power or how to use it)?

The fear of losing salvation is what keeps many from sinning with ease, not worrying about losing it. I honestly get "beaten by God" in may ways, quite obviously and strongly in some circumstances. And the bible says if I am chastised then I am a "son" adopted by God. But if I sin, am I un-adopted by God and a castaway? That is an action by God, yes? How can I castaway myself? Or can I?

You see how circular these arguments go.
This is potentially why I cannot get a gospel tract of any use, as God seems to block the use of nearly every one nearly every time, at least for me.

I pray and hope this will become clear for me at some time, but I obviously must persevere for my own knowing of being saved, at least until I die. Not very comforting to not have clarity, is it!
 

rogerg

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The fear of losing salvation is what keeps many from sinning with ease, not worrying about losing it. I honestly get "beaten by God" in may ways, quite obviously and strongly in some circumstances. And the bible says if I am chastised then I am a "son" adopted by God. But if I sin, am I un-adopted by God and a castaway? That is an action by God, yes? How can I castaway myself? Or can I?

You see how circular these arguments go.
This is potentially why I cannot get a gospel tract of any use, as God seems to block the use of nearly every one nearly every time, at least for me.

I pray and hope this will become clear for me at some time, but I obviously must persevere for my own knowing of being saved, at least until I die. Not very comforting to not have clarity, is it!
No, once saved you cannot become a castaway.
Remember, we are justified by what Christ achieved and accomplished and not in any way by what we have done - this is why He rightfully has the title of Saviour. No matter how hard one may attempt to acquire it, salvation will/can never be attained nor retained by our actions- it is far, far beyond that. Therefore, those who become saved, become so, not by their works, but only because Christ had so chosen them for it, and it is fully and completely a gift - no one can contribute anything to it - we all are but beneficiaries. Look at how God, through Paul, explained it:

[Rom 8:1-3 KJV]
1 [There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:

Notice in verse 2 above, that we are informed salvation is only by the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus itself - and by nothing of Paul's doing - which law freed him ("which made me free") from the law of sin and death. At the highest level then, these are the laws that dictate a person's ultimate fate. Consequently, if our salvation were by Christ, and not by us, then it is evident there can be nothing done by us which can remove it from us, to include any and all sin in the flesh, because it was not of us to begin with - and Christ's redemption is greater than sin. Now, don't misunderstand me. I am NOT saying that it is okay to conduct ourselves in ways that are not God or Christ glorifying because it is not, but neither would that affect our salvation. As you said, should a true Christian behave in such a manner, God will not hesitate to make His displeasure known to them in ways most unpleasant, and will increase it in frequency and intensity until He gets their complete and undivided attention, and they cease from it. Nevertheless, that chastisement is from salvation and to be welcomed - it is not from being taken away from salvation.

[Heb 12:6-8 KJV]
6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.
7 If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?
8 But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons.
 

montana123

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I was raised Southern Baptist and was taught once saved always saved. I understand that nothing can take you from God's hand, however can you leave of your own volition? Hebrews 6:4-6 posted below seem to say that it is possible to leave the faith and that once you do it's not possible to return. Am I reading this wrong?
Many people do not believe that a person can lose salvation but they can if they do not act Christlike led by the Spirit.

16This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
17For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.
18But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
24And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
25If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

When the Bible says a person led of the Spirit is not under the law it means the person is not sinning so the law cannot touch them for prosecution.

4lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
7Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Some people do not allow the Spirit to lead them and believe they are alright when they hold on to sin.

28For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

If a person holds on to sin then the blood of Christ cannot take it away for God will not take away a sin they hold on to.

20For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

If a person repents of their sins and lives Christlike but then goes back to doing the things of the world holding on to sin then they will lose salvation, and it would have been better for them not to have known the truth than to depart from the truth.

This can be corrected by the person repenting of their sins and being led of the Spirit.

21For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
22Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

If a person does not continue in the goodness of God they will be cut off like the Jews that did not abide by the truth were cut off.

1Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,
2Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.
3And this will we do, if God permit.
4For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

If a person leaves the truth that Jesus is Lord and Savior to believe in an alternate reality like another religion, or turning atheist, then they cannot come back to the truth for God will not allow them to be saved again.

1Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils;
2Speaking lies in hypocrisy; having their conscience seared with a hot iron;
3Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth.
4For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
5For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.

2Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

This is speaking of the new age movement that interprets the Bible, and religions, according to the occult and evolution, and people are still evolving to be spiritual, and Jesus evolved to be an ascended master, and there is no God, and the New Age Christ is the final teacher and above Jesus.

They will come out at the latter times which Alice Bailey the biggest prophet of the new age movement started her writing in the 1900's.

Their beliefs will be of seducing spirits and doctrines of devils which they believe Lucifer is a Solar angel that brought the principle of mind to the then animal-man, and will cause people to evolve to be spiritual, and a god, along with the New Age Christ.

Which the New Age Christ will exalt himself above all that is called God, or is worshipped for he is Lucifer inhabiting a human body.

They believe aliens are going to help mankind to have peace on Earth, and there is aliens on Earth.

Which Science says humans are not from the Earth, and the world needs to prepare for an alien encounter.

And they pose the question is God an alien.

They believe Lucifer is a god, and an alien, that wants to help mankind to have peace on Earth, and advance, which they talk about the return of the gods.

But this is a trick of the devil, and the aliens are the fallen angels.

This is the reason the world rebels against God as they change the operation of God to the operation of people that exalts people and there is no God.

But God is allowing it to happen so He can end sin on Earth.

The Bible says some people will depart from the faith of the Bible and follow the new age movement interpretation of the religions, which the time will come people will not want to hear the truth of the Bible but according to their own lusts the new age movement, and their beliefs are fables, make believe, not reality.

The people who depart from the faith to believe an alternate reality which they will not believe Jesus is Lord and Savior but of the occult, and a good teacher in spiritual enlightenment, and there is no God cannot come back to salvation for God will not allow them to be saved again.

But if a person does not confess Jesus as Lord and Savior but follows the new age movement, and then becomes saved believing Jesus as Lord and Savior can be saved.

A person can lose salvation if they do not act Christlike being led by the Spirit.

Every time we sin we forfeit salvation until we repent of the sin and allow the Spirit to lead us.
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
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Many people do not believe that a person can lose salvation but they can if they do not act Christlike led by the Spirit.
Those saved are saved by Christ's sacrifice, not by what they have done, nor what they will do - He is the Saviour.
That is the most foundational and fundamental principle of Christianity.
 

JohnRH

Junior Member
Mar 5, 2018
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If a person believes, actually believes, then how can I have more power than the "purging power of Christ" that will perform a work and "fulfill it to the uttermost"? If I am prepared to be conformed to the image of Christ, how can I stop the conforming? Rebellion? If I have believed, do I believe in vain, thinking Christ is doing the work in me, to the uttermost? Or am I the one who changes me by belief?

This argument is circular. There is no openly understood English from a bible, that is obviously clear, other than, believers will continue to persevere until death, becoming more and more holy as they go on, ideally being instantly free of sinful behavior's, but for many it is a learning curve and addictions are to be broken etc. Those that do not choose to turn from sin, willingly, and choose to continue to willfully sin, or slip into a life of sin in darkness and ignorance, are said to not be saved. But, again, it is not obviously clear, because, in the NT, there are believers who sin and die or "sleep", who may not intend to sin but do so from ignorance by profaning the bread/wine service etc. But they seem to have faith in Jesus, but seem judged by God, as they have not judged themselves. Judged to be punished as "sons adopted", or judged for "hell"? Paul seems to imply, they do believe, so, does this mean they are killed to stop them being sinners, and are now free from being profaners/sinners, free to be with Christ as being clean, or are they in hell? The clarity in English is not clear to me, and seems circular.

I have tried to get around this issue, but a sign of a believer, so that I may know, in myself, is that I will persevere, but will have to suffer the flesh until death. Some say that can a person who is sinful, who has a stroke which lead into sin, be unsaved, or a person who decides to kill people with dementia from whatever cause? At what level is the person not accountable for their actions? At what measuring bar does a person lose salvation? Is it a choice to turn away, or a sin that lures the person away as a captive (that God says they have power over but are ignorant of this power or how to use it)?

The fear of losing salvation is what keeps many from sinning with ease, not worrying about losing it. I honestly get "beaten by God" in may ways, quite obviously and strongly in some circumstances. And the bible says if I am chastised then I am a "son" adopted by God. But if I sin, am I un-adopted by God and a castaway? That is an action by God, yes? How can I castaway myself? Or can I?

You see how circular these arguments go.
This is potentially why I cannot get a gospel tract of any use, as God seems to block the use of nearly every one nearly every time, at least for me.

I pray and hope this will become clear for me at some time, but I obviously must persevere for my own knowing of being saved, at least until I die. Not very comforting to not have clarity, is it!
Don't trust your persevering; trust God's preservation of you.

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. John 10:28-29 (KJV)

If you have eternal life, you can't pluck yourself out of your Father's hand. Trust His holding power; it's impeccable.