Bible Problem

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

NetChaplain

Active member
Nov 21, 2018
657
219
43
#1
Which translation of the Bible do you use? Many are unaware that the manuscripts used for the modern translations are highly spurious, because of the numerous differences between them and the Traditional Text (TT). The manuscripts used for the TT (Majority Text, or Textus Receptus, or Received Text) are much latter (5 century and latter) than those used for the modern translations (MT). The MT manuscripts were not used for copying purposes like those of the TT, because they had too many errors and therefore were rejected and did not wear out. This is what allowed the modern text to gain much ascendancy in popularity, due to their antiquity (3-4th century). As there are many differences between the manuscripts use for the MT, due to omissions, transpositions and interpolations, the early church would not use them (Vaticanus, Sinaticus and Alexandrinus).

What we have today now is that there are so many differences in these modern translations that attempting to memorize Scripture is impossible; and you can’t use a concordance with them because of the above problems stated. This produces a much less significant text that many do not know which should be followed, and thus the usual response is not reading them very much.

In the Hebrew text there are no manuscripts that contain the phrase “the brother of” in 2Sam 21:19. But instead of adding this phrase to make it a truthful reading, the MT’s have omitted it as well, making it an errant reading. Thus, it should read “Elhanan the son of Jaareoregim, a Bethlehemite, slew the brother of Goliath.” But the MT has it “Elhanan the son of Jaareoregim, a Bethlehemite, slew Goliath,” making it an errant reading in conflict with 1Chron 20:5, which states that “Elhanan the son of Jair struck down Lahmi the brother of Goliath” (the NIV had this omission until correcting it recently).

In David Fuller’s book ”Which Bible,” he states that in the winter of 1928 there was a prominent publication company that had a newspaper come out saying “Who Killed Goliath.” He continues to say that “a cablegram came from the most learned and devout scholars of the Church of England” and they “said in substance, that the Revised Version was correct, that Elhanan and not David killed Goliath; and that there were many other things in the Bible which were the product of exaggeration, such as the story of Noah and the ark, Jonah and the whale, the garden of Eden and the longevity of Methuselah.”

The Three manuscripts mentioned above are pretty much the ones these detractors use for their translations (compared to thousands of manuscripts used for the TT). The Vaticanus was found on a shelf in the Vatican library, which was there unused for 1500 years; the Sinaticus was found at monastery, where a monk was using some of the parchments for kindling to get a fire started. Both of these codexes are the oldest manuscripts (3rd century), and this is why they are given too much attention.

A greater harm these MT’s produce is from their omitting Scripture. For one of hundreds of examples, they omitted the entire passage of 1Jn 5:7, which is the primary Trinity doctrine.

Hope this is enough to get others interested in this problem, and I have a great deal more omissions to share on this if you are interested, just let me know.

God bless and always guide us to truth!

NC
 

Seeker47

Well-known member
Aug 7, 2018
995
841
93
#2
I share the frustration.
 

listenyoumustAll

Well-known member
Jul 22, 2021
402
286
63
#3
Which translation of the Bible do you use? Many are unaware that the manuscripts used for the modern translations are highly spurious, because of the numerous differences between them and the Traditional Text (TT). The manuscripts used for the TT (Majority Text, or Textus Receptus, or Received Text) are much latter (5 century and latter) than those used for the modern translations (MT). The MT manuscripts were not used for copying purposes like those of the TT, because they had too many errors and therefore were rejected and did not wear out. This is what allowed the modern text to gain much ascendancy in popularity, due to their antiquity (3-4th century). As there are many differences between the manuscripts use for the MT, due to omissions, transpositions and interpolations, the early church would not use them (Vaticanus, Sinaticus and Alexandrinus).

What we have today now is that there are so many differences in these modern translations that attempting to memorize Scripture is impossible; and you can’t use a concordance with them because of the above problems stated. This produces a much less significant text that many do not know which should be followed, and thus the usual response is not reading them very much.

In the Hebrew text there are no manuscripts that contain the phrase “the brother of” in 2Sam 21:19. But instead of adding this phrase to make it a truthful reading, the MT’s have omitted it as well, making it an errant reading. Thus, it should read “Elhanan the son of Jaareoregim, a Bethlehemite, slew the brother of Goliath.” But the MT has it “Elhanan the son of Jaareoregim, a Bethlehemite, slew Goliath,” making it an errant reading in conflict with 1Chron 20:5, which states that “Elhanan the son of Jair struck down Lahmi the brother of Goliath” (the NIV had this omission until correcting it recently).

In David Fuller’s book ”Which Bible,” he states that in the winter of 1928 there was a prominent publication company that had a newspaper come out saying “Who Killed Goliath.” He continues to say that “a cablegram came from the most learned and devout scholars of the Church of England” and they “said in substance, that the Revised Version was correct, that Elhanan and not David killed Goliath; and that there were many other things in the Bible which were the product of exaggeration, such as the story of Noah and the ark, Jonah and the whale, the garden of Eden and the longevity of Methuselah.”

The Three manuscripts mentioned above are pretty much the ones these detractors use for their translations (compared to thousands of manuscripts used for the TT). The Vaticanus was found on a shelf in the Vatican library, which was there unused for 1500 years; the Sinaticus was found at monastery, where a monk was using some of the parchments for kindling to get a fire started. Both of these codexes are the oldest manuscripts (3rd century), and this is why they are given too much attention.

A greater harm these MT’s produce is from their omitting Scripture. For one of hundreds of examples, they omitted the entire passage of 1Jn 5:7, which is the primary Trinity doctrine.

Hope this is enough to get others interested in this problem, and I have a great deal more omissions to share on this if you are interested, just let me know.

God bless and always guide us to truth!

NC
I use KJV I don't read italics within because I noticed in some cases it reshapes perception contrary to the Word .in a Knut shell the holy spirit gives understand which ever translation you use .
 

JohnDB

Well-known member
Jan 16, 2021
5,621
2,208
113
#4
Which translation of the Bible do you use? Many are unaware that the manuscripts used for the modern translations are highly spurious, because of the numerous differences between them and the Traditional Text (TT). The manuscripts used for the TT (Majority Text, or Textus Receptus, or Received Text) are much latter (5 century and latter) than those used for the modern translations (MT). The MT manuscripts were not used for copying purposes like those of the TT, because they had too many errors and therefore were rejected and did not wear out. This is what allowed the modern text to gain much ascendancy in popularity, due to their antiquity (3-4th century). As there are many differences between the manuscripts use for the MT, due to omissions, transpositions and interpolations, the early church would not use them (Vaticanus, Sinaticus and Alexandrinus).

What we have today now is that there are so many differences in these modern translations that attempting to memorize Scripture is impossible; and you can’t use a concordance with them because of the above problems stated. This produces a much less significant text that many do not know which should be followed, and thus the usual response is not reading them very much.

In the Hebrew text there are no manuscripts that contain the phrase “the brother of” in 2Sam 21:19. But instead of adding this phrase to make it a truthful reading, the MT’s have omitted it as well, making it an errant reading. Thus, it should read “Elhanan the son of Jaareoregim, a Bethlehemite, slew the brother of Goliath.” But the MT has it “Elhanan the son of Jaareoregim, a Bethlehemite, slew Goliath,” making it an errant reading in conflict with 1Chron 20:5, which states that “Elhanan the son of Jair struck down Lahmi the brother of Goliath” (the NIV had this omission until correcting it recently).

In David Fuller’s book ”Which Bible,” he states that in the winter of 1928 there was a prominent publication company that had a newspaper come out saying “Who Killed Goliath.” He continues to say that “a cablegram came from the most learned and devout scholars of the Church of England” and they “said in substance, that the Revised Version was correct, that Elhanan and not David killed Goliath; and that there were many other things in the Bible which were the product of exaggeration, such as the story of Noah and the ark, Jonah and the whale, the garden of Eden and the longevity of Methuselah.”

The Three manuscripts mentioned above are pretty much the ones these detractors use for their translations (compared to thousands of manuscripts used for the TT). The Vaticanus was found on a shelf in the Vatican library, which was there unused for 1500 years; the Sinaticus was found at monastery, where a monk was using some of the parchments for kindling to get a fire started. Both of these codexes are the oldest manuscripts (3rd century), and this is why they are given too much attention.

A greater harm these MT’s produce is from their omitting Scripture. For one of hundreds of examples, they omitted the entire passage of 1Jn 5:7, which is the primary Trinity doctrine.

Hope this is enough to get others interested in this problem, and I have a great deal more omissions to share on this if you are interested, just let me know.

God bless and always guide us to truth!

NC
Each set of manuscripts has a history and a grade for consistency. These were all hand transcribed because there was no such thing as printing presses or the mass production of sheets of paper.

Most manuscripts also were regional in either copying errors which were included or notes of the priest who created the copy. Every priest usually created his own copy of the Bible as it was a requirement to gain the coveted seminary degree....a practice that continued well after the American Revolutionary War.

Of course the more famous/respected the priest the more desired copying his Bible was...it was a prize that young, wannabe priests sought after. So personal notes of that priest were usually copied as well. Then when handed to another the new copyist wouldn't necessarily know what was Scripture and what was note....and after a few decades....a mess even though the best attempts were done to not make errors.
 

NotmebutHim

Senior Member
May 17, 2015
2,920
1,591
113
47
#5
I use the KJV, NKJV, (original) NIV and the ESV.

James White is a good source with regard to Biblical manuscripts and which ones were used to create the various Bible translations/versions we have today.
 

JohnDB

Well-known member
Jan 16, 2021
5,621
2,208
113
#6
The Egyptian set of manuscripts (written in Aramaic and Arabic) have minor variations from the Latin....of course the major problem with the Latin texts is that there are no two that are the same. We can find several Egyptian texts that are aligned with minor spelling errors and a historical account of when an error was started and copied into later copies is also discernable. Alexandria Texts were also compared with Egyptian and Latin texts...after once again studying minor copyist errors progression. And the whole included notes, additions, and deletions became apparent as to where they originated.

We can't say the same for the Latin Manuscripts....and the Catholics have had a very difficult time creating a Bible once the printing press became the norm for the Bible. There seems to be no history to these. Mainly because the Catholics employed "scribes" who copied scriptures all day everyday in rather "uncomfortable" circumstances. These Bibles were then sold to nobility for high prices with fanciful tales as to their origins (marketing) either alluded to by the priests or made up by the boasting of the wealthy ruling class. (Poor were not allowed to learn to read or write)
 

Lynx

Folksy yet erudite
Aug 13, 2014
24,924
8,170
113
#7
Ugh. Here we go again.

Y'all are dripping BDF all over our nice miscellaneous carpet.
 

Artios1

Born again to serve
Dec 11, 2020
668
400
63
#8
I agree with your analysis ...But that is why we do the research and work the Word

The KJV is helpful in that it has many (not all) of the added words in italic.... But KJ like may other versions omits many word that are in earliest MMS .... within that frame work the KJ omits the article countless times .. which in English would make a slight difference ...but in Greek it is a huge difference as the importance of the article is significant in its' use.

The one place I disagree is your reference to 1 John_5:7. being left out in many versions. It should be left out.... it doesn't matter if it was talking about the trinity or the sandals people wore....Then you trace the history of how that was added from a marginal note to being inserted it in itself is spurious. and it doesn't even fit with the context...
 

Lynx

Folksy yet erudite
Aug 13, 2014
24,924
8,170
113
#9
With the invention of computers, and lately specifically smartphones, this whole argument is moot. You can install a bible program, load all the Bible versions you want and compare/contrast each verse between all the Bible versions you have installed.

Esword for windows
Xiphos for Linux
Bishop for Android
 

NetChaplain

Active member
Nov 21, 2018
657
219
43
#11
I use KJV I don't read italics within because I noticed in some cases it reshapes perception contrary to the Word .in a Knut shell the holy spirit gives understand which ever translation you use .
You might know that the italicized word represent words that were not in the original Greek, and are added to help clarify passages. If they didn't italicize they would be guilty of adding to the Word. What about the warning in Rev 22:19, which the Modern translations are guilty of with their numerous omissions. Their Greek text has only about 70% of the original Word; and what they have presents many errors compared to the Traditional text.
 

NetChaplain

Active member
Nov 21, 2018
657
219
43
#12
I agree with your analysis ...But that is why we do the research and work the Word

The KJV is helpful in that it has many (not all) of the added words in italic.... But KJ like may other versions omits many word that are in earliest MMS .... within that frame work the KJ omits the article countless times .. which in English would make a slight difference ...but in Greek it is a huge difference as the importance of the article is significant in its' use.

The one place I disagree is your reference to 1 John_5:7. being left out in many versions. It should be left out.... it doesn't matter if it was talking about the trinity or the sandals people wore....Then you trace the history of how that was added from a marginal note to being inserted it in itself is spurious. and it doesn't even fit with the context...
A translation has no significance if it omits Scripture. The Majority Text is the only source that retains the entire Word, and is why it will always be the most used, because you can't use a concordance with the modern translation, for they are missing to much of Scripture, and contain many errors--even many disagreements between themselves, which is primarily the Vaticanus and Sianiticus, compared to thousands of manuscripts, not just 2 or three like the Minority Text.
 

listenyoumustAll

Well-known member
Jul 22, 2021
402
286
63
#13
You might know that the italicized word represent words that were not in the original Greek, and are added to help clarify passages. If they didn't italicize they would be guilty of adding to the Word. What about the warning in Rev 22:19, which the Modern translations are guilty of with their numerous omissions. Their Greek text has only about 70% of the original Word; and what they have presents many errors compared to the Traditional text.
The Word is whole in itself ,no addition nor subtraction can take away its trustworthiness. For me the italics in it is more damage though helpful In some cases.
 

Eli1

Well-known member
Apr 5, 2022
3,268
1,116
113
46
#15
I was going to post something serious but now that you made me laugh, i can't anymore RaceRunner.

Anyway, my thoughts are similar to John's in this topic.
 

NetChaplain

Active member
Nov 21, 2018
657
219
43
#16
The Word is whole in itself ,no addition nor subtraction can take away its trustworthiness. For me the italics in it is more damage though helpful In some cases.
I know I can't trust a Bible that says Elhanan killed Goliath (2Sam 21:19), and omits important passages (1JN 5:7).
 

listenyoumustAll

Well-known member
Jul 22, 2021
402
286
63
#17
I know I can't trust a Bible that says Elhanan killed Goliath (2Sam 21:19), and omits important passages (1JN 5:7).
When you want to download an app in your playstore ..you go for the ones with awesome review because they are more likely to give you very close to standard service you are searching for . ...now liken to choosing a bible apply same wisdom .. Note no app comes without glitches
 

Lynx

Folksy yet erudite
Aug 13, 2014
24,924
8,170
113
#18
When you want to download an app in your playstore ..you go for the ones with awesome review because they are more likely to give you very close to standard service you are searching for . ...now liken to choosing a bible apply same wisdom .. Note no app comes without glitches
As long as the app doesn't come with ads. Bleh!

That's why I like Bishop for my phone. Strictly ad free. Also free, free.
 

Billyd

Senior Member
May 8, 2014
5,052
1,493
113
#19
I'm a long time user of e-Sword on my PC and My-Sword on my tablet and phone. Ad free and also free.
 

listenyoumustAll

Well-known member
Jul 22, 2021
402
286
63
#20
As long as the app doesn't come with ads. Bleh!

That's why I like Bishop for my phone. Strictly ad free. Also free, free.
Lol okay . developers have to be blessed also as you are blessed of their creation . won't you agree?😝😝😝