In The Beginning
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Hi. I'm new here. Thought I would add some of my own philosophical thoughts to the discussion as it relates to the purpose of time in Genesis 1. I firmly believe that God has not done anything by accident and that his creations are not incidental but rather all aspects of his creation serve a designed purpose.
I believe Genesis describes a literal 6 days for several reasons, but I beg your patience as I lay out my reasoning in not one single thought but rather a series of connected ideas.
1. I believe creation (like Adam himself) was made mature and had all the appearances of age. That seems obvious but it is a weak argument in and of itself against the idea of theistic evolution and that days in Genesis 1 might represent some larger amount of the passing of time.
Thus, if we are going to debate scripture's intent or meaning of these days then let scripture be our guide on their purpose.
2. Scripture elsewhere and in many places infers that the entire point of time is the focus on God's steady and methodical self-revelation to his creation, so that at the appointed time Christ might come in context of multi-generational experiences and in witness to this self-revelation as the fullest expression of himself. Scripture further points out that this self-revelation is what was intended before the foundations of the world were laid and was indeed the mystery hidden since the foundation of the world. Scripture further emphasizes that everything that happened in the OT was done and recorded for our sake, so that in Christ we might finally understand. Christ himself teaches his disciples how the law and the prophets all pointed to him. This fact further also indicating that God did not intend that the OT people and NT people would be saved differently but rather all in Christ. (Gal 4:4, Eph 1:9, Rom 15:4, Gal 3:7-29, Heb 11:39-40, Eph 3:9-10, Matt 25:34, Luke 24:27, Matt 13:34, Heb 9:23-28, Is 40:21, Rev 13:8)
So, I believe Genesis 1 is literal and it is so, for a redemptive supporting purpose. It is setting the stage for his book that each new day God will reveal something more of himself than the day before; and indeed will reveal something more to us of our brokenness that we didn’t know the day before (or generation before).
4. To bring my point to a close, this idea is concluded as we move into Genesis chapter 2 where the 7th day is introduced, that final day of REST. Of course, this day pictures for us rest, and throughout the bible, we see this theme develop from references to a day of rest, to a land of rest and ultimately pointing us to our complete rest in Christ and then our final rest in the new heavens and new earth. This new heaven and new earth is the conclusion of time as we know it (no more darkness - no more evening and morning). Time exists to serve God’s purposes and the end of the ages inaugurates the timelessness of eternity.
Finally, we see time not only as the tool of God’s self-revelation as we observe and learn from past generational growth in knowledge, understanding, and faith through a myriad of people, laws, circumstances, sins, temptations, and difficulties, but we also see time’s usefulness in unfolding in our life our own personal growth and sanctification as the Holy Spirit not only reveals more of God’s character to us but also more of our deep need.
Genesis 1 sets the stage that time is important to us, as his creation, in understanding Him, our brokenness, and his purpose. If His ways are truly high above our own this should not be hard to grasp. So, if we are integral to his purpose then having millions of years of evolution where God is not revealing himself and humanity is not present, it seems once again counter to his purpose when rather he can simply create a mature creation while simultaneously establishing time as the environment for the flourishing of his self-revealing purpose.
I believe Genesis describes a literal 6 days for several reasons, but I beg your patience as I lay out my reasoning in not one single thought but rather a series of connected ideas.
1. I believe creation (like Adam himself) was made mature and had all the appearances of age. That seems obvious but it is a weak argument in and of itself against the idea of theistic evolution and that days in Genesis 1 might represent some larger amount of the passing of time.
Thus, if we are going to debate scripture's intent or meaning of these days then let scripture be our guide on their purpose.
2. Scripture elsewhere and in many places infers that the entire point of time is the focus on God's steady and methodical self-revelation to his creation, so that at the appointed time Christ might come in context of multi-generational experiences and in witness to this self-revelation as the fullest expression of himself. Scripture further points out that this self-revelation is what was intended before the foundations of the world were laid and was indeed the mystery hidden since the foundation of the world. Scripture further emphasizes that everything that happened in the OT was done and recorded for our sake, so that in Christ we might finally understand. Christ himself teaches his disciples how the law and the prophets all pointed to him. This fact further also indicating that God did not intend that the OT people and NT people would be saved differently but rather all in Christ. (Gal 4:4, Eph 1:9, Rom 15:4, Gal 3:7-29, Heb 11:39-40, Eph 3:9-10, Matt 25:34, Luke 24:27, Matt 13:34, Heb 9:23-28, Is 40:21, Rev 13:8)
2a. How it applies to Genesis 1 - From a biblical perspective, this makes millions of years of an evolutionary timeline perspective of Genesis 1 (wherein mankind is not present) to be superfluous to the purpose of time itself (to reveal God). If one is even to argue that the science (or occurrence) of evolution over those previous millions of years could in some way display God’s glory from a Romans 1 perspective then again God could simply have made his creation mature in order to reveal such “glorious” things and it would not require millions of years. Its superfluous to His purpose since we weren’t there anyway – we can still study it now with no detrimental impact by him making creation mature/old. So I repeat, if evolution were to actually have occurred, it would represent millions of years wherein God is not recorded as revealing or pointing toward the pinnacle purpose of his creation and that of time itself.
3. Additionally, any time we are reading Hebrew writing (particularly true in the Pentateuch) we must understand that repetition is a tool intended to focus the reader’s attention on important details. The first chapter is laying forth for us the idea that God is ordered, planned, and purposeful. We see contrasted against chaos and formlessness these ideas repeated 1st day, 2nd day, 3rd day, 4th, 5th, 6th, evening and morning, evening and morning, evening and morning…So too from scripture we know God had a purpose before he began and that he is not only creating the objects of that purpose but he is establishing the medium or environment in which his purpose will unfold – creation and time itself. This is often overlooked but this is critical to understanding the Bible as it records God’s self-revelation. Time is created as the environment or medium through which he chooses to reveal himself to the objects of his creation.So, I believe Genesis 1 is literal and it is so, for a redemptive supporting purpose. It is setting the stage for his book that each new day God will reveal something more of himself than the day before; and indeed will reveal something more to us of our brokenness that we didn’t know the day before (or generation before).
4. To bring my point to a close, this idea is concluded as we move into Genesis chapter 2 where the 7th day is introduced, that final day of REST. Of course, this day pictures for us rest, and throughout the bible, we see this theme develop from references to a day of rest, to a land of rest and ultimately pointing us to our complete rest in Christ and then our final rest in the new heavens and new earth. This new heaven and new earth is the conclusion of time as we know it (no more darkness - no more evening and morning). Time exists to serve God’s purposes and the end of the ages inaugurates the timelessness of eternity.
Finally, we see time not only as the tool of God’s self-revelation as we observe and learn from past generational growth in knowledge, understanding, and faith through a myriad of people, laws, circumstances, sins, temptations, and difficulties, but we also see time’s usefulness in unfolding in our life our own personal growth and sanctification as the Holy Spirit not only reveals more of God’s character to us but also more of our deep need.
Genesis 1 sets the stage that time is important to us, as his creation, in understanding Him, our brokenness, and his purpose. If His ways are truly high above our own this should not be hard to grasp. So, if we are integral to his purpose then having millions of years of evolution where God is not revealing himself and humanity is not present, it seems once again counter to his purpose when rather he can simply create a mature creation while simultaneously establishing time as the environment for the flourishing of his self-revealing purpose.
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Thank you for the welcome.
I've not heard the term shingle before but from your context I'm guessing you're referencing a college degree.
I do have a postgrad degree but not in this area at all. While there have been many over the years that have written about time, most of those writings have only mentioned time as a factual mechanism, using it as someone might to describe the order of events or the historical progressive self-revelation of God to man. And others have made insightful comments about time in various salvific or philosophical ways, but none to my knowledge have ever focused (philosophically so) on time itself as it holds mastery over us as a created order instituted and indispensable on earth for the purpose of the plan of salvation. These are my own musings from years of considering such matters. I will confess to have dabbled in writing a book on it but have yet to find enough time (no pun intended) as a foster parent to complete such an endeavor.
Truly, this idea about time ought to humble us further and indeed shouldn't be a surprise if God's ways are higher than our own. Time is the only mechanism that both restricts and offers us growth in pursuit of eternal knowledge/wisdom (let's call it God's ways) and yet too, if God's use of time has shown us anything, its that we can pursue what we think is God's way and in the end simply be fulfilling Proverbs 14:12. Humbling indeed, since Ecclesiastes also tells us that God "put eternity into man’s heart, yet so that he cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end" and that from the perspective under the sun it is vain to try to uncover it. Yet there is hope that the mystery hidden from the foundation of the world is made known in Christ where the eternal and time collide.
Because its still relevant to my previous point in this thread that time is not a small detail in Genesis 1, I will attempt to elaborate per your request. The millennia of OT history is immensely relevant to us as Christians because it was all necessary in time to see our own natures revealed as well as our own cultural proclivities and cycles over time; and having observed ourselves in this mirror we might hope to better understand the nature, character, and work of Christ.
Take this example of the use of Time in our own personal experience and maturation as it might relate to mankind's growth in time. Please remember that all analogies breakdown at some point when inspected beyond the idea they are intended to convey. However, so that the imagery might accomplish in fewer words what all I am intending to convey please consider this analogy about the kitchen stove and our approach to it as a guide to thinking about time's passage and our ability to grasp who God is and our needs.
Let's assume that the kitchen stove is God and a small child is mankind and the parent is the law as our tutor.
Think for a moment of Lamech in Genesis 4 (so early in time) who clearly did not comprehend God's mercy to Cain as he proclaims that if Cain would be avenged for killing one man how much more will I be avenged for killing more. Their is no understanding of God's character or of his mercy...there is no fear of God or understanding of what God desires in the heart and that we should not sin that grace may abound more.
This too is the point of the pre-flood era to address and make plain to those who imagine a lawless world where long-life is achieved, a united humanity, relative healthiness, relative harmony with animals ( no fear of man yet), that man somehow can achieve utopia apart from God is not possible as we will certainly devolve to our broken nature.
At bare minimum, time has revealed that the fear of the law (Gen 9:6, See also Paul's reference to government's sword in the NT) is required to restrain the evil in man not for his eternal salvation but for the sake of humanity enduring in time. Yet even in this reality, time unfolds in the OT to teach us that nations/people eventually give up on this self-governance by the law to pursue all kinds of evil and self-serving indulgences (child sacrifice, sexual depravity, neglect of the poor/weak/neighbor, etc.) and God intercedes using nation to judge nation in order to preserve his creation for the sake of his promised offer of deliverance.
Time is also the factor at play in why God does not reveal himself as trinity to the OT people who were as children in their understanding of God. Prone so often to idolatry, couldn't you imagine their division and their proclamations - I worship the father...well I worship the Spirit...well the Son is most important. Instead you have this focus for our sake, in time, of God saying in the shema that the Lord is ONE. There was already enough references in the OT that the people could at any point be tempted to splinter God and so the OT time period was our tutor to arrive at the coming of Christ and to what I believe is a correct view of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as the Triune God.
Time is really a funky (technical term) aspect of creation and the fact that we are bound by it and can't learn outside of its mastery over us, is a fact that we rarely apply to the whole of history and even ourselves.
I've not heard the term shingle before but from your context I'm guessing you're referencing a college degree.
I do have a postgrad degree but not in this area at all. While there have been many over the years that have written about time, most of those writings have only mentioned time as a factual mechanism, using it as someone might to describe the order of events or the historical progressive self-revelation of God to man. And others have made insightful comments about time in various salvific or philosophical ways, but none to my knowledge have ever focused (philosophically so) on time itself as it holds mastery over us as a created order instituted and indispensable on earth for the purpose of the plan of salvation. These are my own musings from years of considering such matters. I will confess to have dabbled in writing a book on it but have yet to find enough time (no pun intended) as a foster parent to complete such an endeavor.
Truly, this idea about time ought to humble us further and indeed shouldn't be a surprise if God's ways are higher than our own. Time is the only mechanism that both restricts and offers us growth in pursuit of eternal knowledge/wisdom (let's call it God's ways) and yet too, if God's use of time has shown us anything, its that we can pursue what we think is God's way and in the end simply be fulfilling Proverbs 14:12. Humbling indeed, since Ecclesiastes also tells us that God "put eternity into man’s heart, yet so that he cannot find out what God has done from the beginning to the end" and that from the perspective under the sun it is vain to try to uncover it. Yet there is hope that the mystery hidden from the foundation of the world is made known in Christ where the eternal and time collide.
Because its still relevant to my previous point in this thread that time is not a small detail in Genesis 1, I will attempt to elaborate per your request. The millennia of OT history is immensely relevant to us as Christians because it was all necessary in time to see our own natures revealed as well as our own cultural proclivities and cycles over time; and having observed ourselves in this mirror we might hope to better understand the nature, character, and work of Christ.
Take this example of the use of Time in our own personal experience and maturation as it might relate to mankind's growth in time. Please remember that all analogies breakdown at some point when inspected beyond the idea they are intended to convey. However, so that the imagery might accomplish in fewer words what all I am intending to convey please consider this analogy about the kitchen stove and our approach to it as a guide to thinking about time's passage and our ability to grasp who God is and our needs.
Let's assume that the kitchen stove is God and a small child is mankind and the parent is the law as our tutor.
As a crawling or toddling child the parent may allow a child in the kitchen while simply moving the child out of harms way from time to time. Or to the toddling child the parent might, as in my day, pop the child's hand to say "no," perhaps even instructing - "hot," "don't touch, it will hurt you." The parent remains always vigilant lest the child approach and get hurt.
As a rising kindergartener with a little more understanding to receive instruction the parent says, stay out of the kitchen when I'm cooking on the stove, and perhaps more general information is given but you have to tell them a thousand times the same thing.
However, instructions may eventually be given not to come near when the oven is open or other such ideas.
For a 10 or 12 year old, a parent may explain simply when the red light is on, it means the stove and/or oven are hot and you need to stay away because you don't what is hot and what isn't.
For a young teenager you begin to teach them how to approach the stove, how to work around it, use mitts, and respect its dangers.
Through this time bound process the child is now competent to approach and use the stove, but nothing about the earlier commands or laws have truly changed they have simply been fulfilled in spirit and in right relationship to the stove, its dangers, and its blessings.
Mankind is very much like this in his time bound, multi-generational growth in understanding of God. Time was/is required or rather ordained by God as necessary to his purpose.Think for a moment of Lamech in Genesis 4 (so early in time) who clearly did not comprehend God's mercy to Cain as he proclaims that if Cain would be avenged for killing one man how much more will I be avenged for killing more. Their is no understanding of God's character or of his mercy...there is no fear of God or understanding of what God desires in the heart and that we should not sin that grace may abound more.
This too is the point of the pre-flood era to address and make plain to those who imagine a lawless world where long-life is achieved, a united humanity, relative healthiness, relative harmony with animals ( no fear of man yet), that man somehow can achieve utopia apart from God is not possible as we will certainly devolve to our broken nature.
At bare minimum, time has revealed that the fear of the law (Gen 9:6, See also Paul's reference to government's sword in the NT) is required to restrain the evil in man not for his eternal salvation but for the sake of humanity enduring in time. Yet even in this reality, time unfolds in the OT to teach us that nations/people eventually give up on this self-governance by the law to pursue all kinds of evil and self-serving indulgences (child sacrifice, sexual depravity, neglect of the poor/weak/neighbor, etc.) and God intercedes using nation to judge nation in order to preserve his creation for the sake of his promised offer of deliverance.
Time is also the factor at play in why God does not reveal himself as trinity to the OT people who were as children in their understanding of God. Prone so often to idolatry, couldn't you imagine their division and their proclamations - I worship the father...well I worship the Spirit...well the Son is most important. Instead you have this focus for our sake, in time, of God saying in the shema that the Lord is ONE. There was already enough references in the OT that the people could at any point be tempted to splinter God and so the OT time period was our tutor to arrive at the coming of Christ and to what I believe is a correct view of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as the Triune God.
Time is really a funky (technical term) aspect of creation and the fact that we are bound by it and can't learn outside of its mastery over us, is a fact that we rarely apply to the whole of history and even ourselves.
Great discussion....refreshing and I am really interested in taking this a bit further since you gave a great commentary "layup" for me to further what you have said.
You mentioned several instances and elements too juicy for me to ignore.
Time being a type of law
Lamech
Order
Chaos
The original audience for Genesis was extremely cognizant of the need for law, which brought about order, because otherwise there was chaos and death.
It was rather scary to follow Moses into the wilderness away from the ordered society of the Egyptians. Urbanization and the horrifying deurbanization from entire cities simply evaporating from poorly crafted laws were extremely common.
The visuals of what the lawless wilderness would do to a family were all too real.
Lamech knew of Cain....and his declaration was the very early stages of a code of law. It assumed that Lamech was righteous because he has taken, and thought himself worthy, of two wives instead of just one. And that a 7-fold revenge was righteousness over that of Cain's, who actually knew God and had built a levitical city of refuge for one accused of murder.
Obviously the narrative is trying to demonstrate that this law was focused on violence, death, and destruction. As in a poorly crafted law that nobody really wanted. And indeed God flooded the Earth as a result of the violence.
But the Israelites still wanted their own laws, culture, the whole enchilada.... instead of a slave sub-culture of the Egyptians. One that would succeed and not fail. One they could support and that should bring order. (And this culture is STILL going today 5,500+ years later....talk about knocking it out of the park eh?)
As descendents of Abraham's they could share in Abraham's inheritance so long as they acted as a descendent of Abraham's.
Abraham was God's friend.
God exists inside of time, throughout time as well as outside. So any worship of God needs to continue on with Abraham's exact worship of God in the same way as Abraham's did. Abraham had the relationship, Individuals as an Israelite did not....but being a descendent patriarch got them the "inside track" on things. So so long as they continued in the precise manner as Moses laid out in the Law (Torah) an Israelite could have everything including a lasting legacy....instead of chaos, forgetting, and death.
Today as our westernized societies try to do away with morality laws as if doing so was a "higher calling" type morality for the "enlightened" but in reality has been tried before....I gotta wonder if ever we are going to end back at the circular shape one day and claim we discovered the wheel all over again as if it was the newest thing around.
You mentioned several instances and elements too juicy for me to ignore.
Time being a type of law
Lamech
Order
Chaos
The original audience for Genesis was extremely cognizant of the need for law, which brought about order, because otherwise there was chaos and death.
It was rather scary to follow Moses into the wilderness away from the ordered society of the Egyptians. Urbanization and the horrifying deurbanization from entire cities simply evaporating from poorly crafted laws were extremely common.
The visuals of what the lawless wilderness would do to a family were all too real.
Lamech knew of Cain....and his declaration was the very early stages of a code of law. It assumed that Lamech was righteous because he has taken, and thought himself worthy, of two wives instead of just one. And that a 7-fold revenge was righteousness over that of Cain's, who actually knew God and had built a levitical city of refuge for one accused of murder.
Obviously the narrative is trying to demonstrate that this law was focused on violence, death, and destruction. As in a poorly crafted law that nobody really wanted. And indeed God flooded the Earth as a result of the violence.
But the Israelites still wanted their own laws, culture, the whole enchilada.... instead of a slave sub-culture of the Egyptians. One that would succeed and not fail. One they could support and that should bring order. (And this culture is STILL going today 5,500+ years later....talk about knocking it out of the park eh?)
As descendents of Abraham's they could share in Abraham's inheritance so long as they acted as a descendent of Abraham's.
Abraham was God's friend.
God exists inside of time, throughout time as well as outside. So any worship of God needs to continue on with Abraham's exact worship of God in the same way as Abraham's did. Abraham had the relationship, Individuals as an Israelite did not....but being a descendent patriarch got them the "inside track" on things. So so long as they continued in the precise manner as Moses laid out in the Law (Torah) an Israelite could have everything including a lasting legacy....instead of chaos, forgetting, and death.
Today as our westernized societies try to do away with morality laws as if doing so was a "higher calling" type morality for the "enlightened" but in reality has been tried before....I gotta wonder if ever we are going to end back at the circular shape one day and claim we discovered the wheel all over again as if it was the newest thing around.
Why would God take millions of years to create all things.
God can create things in their mature form and do it quickly.
Why would God use evolution as a way to bring things about.
Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
This happened at each day of the 6 days that the morning and the evening were a day which is a literal day.
The 7 days are literal 7 days not millions of years.
Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
Gen 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
All the life forms were created in their mature form and not an evolutionary process because they came from the Earth, and after their kind which means they did not come from a lower species.
God made all the life forms from the dust of the Earth in their mature form after their kind and did not come from a lower species.
God is an omnipresent Spirit so He can create fast because He does not have to move for He is already there.
So by the time it takes Him to make one star He created them all while simultaneously creating anything else He wants to create.
God could of actually created all things in less than 6 days but He wanted 7 days for a week which represents 6000 years for mankind, and then 1000 years of peace.
God can create things in their mature form and do it quickly.
Why would God use evolution as a way to bring things about.
Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.
This happened at each day of the 6 days that the morning and the evening were a day which is a literal day.
The 7 days are literal 7 days not millions of years.
Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth, which the waters brought forth abundantly, after their kind, and every winged fowl after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
Gen 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.
Gen 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good.
All the life forms were created in their mature form and not an evolutionary process because they came from the Earth, and after their kind which means they did not come from a lower species.
God made all the life forms from the dust of the Earth in their mature form after their kind and did not come from a lower species.
God is an omnipresent Spirit so He can create fast because He does not have to move for He is already there.
So by the time it takes Him to make one star He created them all while simultaneously creating anything else He wants to create.
God could of actually created all things in less than 6 days but He wanted 7 days for a week which represents 6000 years for mankind, and then 1000 years of peace.
There is no definitive answer to your question; there are some theories, but the Bible doesn't really say. It could be 6000 years for the age of the earth, but there are real problems with that theory. For example, the Bible's geneologies often skip generations, including only the ones the writers want to emphasize.
The length of the days can be longer than 24 days because God created the sun on the fourth, and we measure time by our revolution around it. So, the first three days could have been much longer. Also, God said, "Let the earth bring forth," which probably took longer than one day. In addition, the word "day" in the Bible is often used for a longer period of time.
On the other hand, the words saying that God's creation happened with an evening and a morning points to a 24-hour day.
I guess the saying, "you had to be there," applies here. You really had to be there to experience the length of time.
I'm not going to fret over not knowing. My comfort is that God with his great creative power made everything and everyone including me.
The length of the days can be longer than 24 days because God created the sun on the fourth, and we measure time by our revolution around it. So, the first three days could have been much longer. Also, God said, "Let the earth bring forth," which probably took longer than one day. In addition, the word "day" in the Bible is often used for a longer period of time.
On the other hand, the words saying that God's creation happened with an evening and a morning points to a 24-hour day.
I guess the saying, "you had to be there," applies here. You really had to be there to experience the length of time.
I'm not going to fret over not knowing. My comfort is that God with his great creative power made everything and everyone including me.
...in the beginning, it was complete darkness. almost null and void. just stuck in place. having literally no abilities, just existing in a very deep and dark space. as days began to pass by, a release took place. some how managing to locate space big enough to maneuver. there's literally no vision at all, but there was the ability to touch and feel. everything could be heard from outside. as the days turned into months, space suddenly grew smaller and smaller. no more ability to freely move. almost as if being back to the stuck in place position once more. then from nowhere, light appeared. the atmospheric temperature had been identified as changed. a jerk and yank followed by a broken seal. flying upward and away now. a thundering smack could be heard. the burst of noise erupted. the eyes had been opened. the mouth had been heard. the world had been notified.
...in the beginning...
was rough!
...in the beginning...
was rough!
I sat through waaay too many hours of Gap Theory under Rick Knapp and Colonel Theime to go past your reference about the noble Bereans. I've wasted far more time than necessary on this subject with the most far outlandish "exegesis" to tell me that I can't trust the Bible. They wanted us to trust those who can't even speak Greek on a second grade conversational level as Greek experts because they know how to parse verbs to come up with modified and expanded translations. 🙄
My Ex-fiance and others idolized those mere men to the point of never reading the KJV English Bible for themselves. After all why read it if we are to be like Roman Catholics and cannot understand it for ourselves.
My Ex-fiance and others idolized those mere men to the point of never reading the KJV English Bible for themselves. After all why read it if we are to be like Roman Catholics and cannot understand it for ourselves.
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So as it pertains to this thread...A quick elaboration of this. Yes I see Genesis 1 establishing the environmental context of God's purposes concerning us. Time is one of those contexts and it has dominion now but not forever. In one very real sense you could substitute death in for time, because God not only institutes time but with the conclusion of the Day 7 he is actually instituting its end as well.
He doesn't institute/create the idea of death formerly until the warning is given in Gen 2:17 but he is nonetheless establishing (in Gen 1:1 - 2:3) a concept of something that has a beginning and an end outside of eternity.
He doesn't institute/create the idea of death formerly until the warning is given in Gen 2:17 but he is nonetheless establishing (in Gen 1:1 - 2:3) a concept of something that has a beginning and an end outside of eternity.
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Thread crossover is extremely common for this forum so I really don't see a problem arising from getting a bit sidetracked with this....
The entire Torah (5 books of Moses) is a collection of 613 laws that the israelites were to follow so that they could know precisely how to behave just like their patriarchs, stemming from Abraham, whom received God's friendship. It also instituted the patriarchy system of governance.
The concept of Patriarchy is first revealed the most accurately in the story of Noah with Ham and in the pronouncement of the curse. Now where most people believe that Noah is "proclaiming Canaan's" future as created by God as a punishment its actually revealing Canaan's future that Ham is going to create into Canaan himself with Ham's attitudes and behaviors. IOW Ham is going to curse his own son by the attitudes and behaviors he exhibits.
So...
When it comes time for blessings the contrast is shown with Abraham. Wear clothes like Abraham wore, eat only foods like Abraham ate, cut your hair like Abraham, circumcise like Abraham, do the exact things Abraham did as if he is your biological father. (There is no Hebrew word for "forefather" or "grandfather" and the exact relationship is usually referred to by guessing) The 5th commandment is not really a focus on birth parents but more about Abraham and Sarah....disobedient children prohibitions are listed in Deuteronomy.
But with the things you do, wear, eat, and say you Now have the appearance as if you are a child of Abraham's and all the blessings that he had, you can now inherit. Most especially, access to God.
Now a bit more about patriarchy...
A patriarch was a family's access to God (very important) and your community representative. But that's not all. A patriarch was also to give everyone in his family a voice....to tend to the needs of the entire family from the best to the least. Each family was a communal lifestyle....all pulling together collectively for the good of the family by whatever profession. (Farming, fishing, shepherding and etc) all family "secrets" or skills of the family profession were just that....secrets. not keeping secrets or fulfilling your duties could get you tossed from the family and you would be Apostate or in ancient Egyptian "apiru" or more known today as Hebrew....meaning "worthless, homeless, without family bum. And a patriarch was supposed to look out for the least members of his family needs if he was a good one. And if you were a "least" and needed access to God your Patriarch was your person who did that for you....(maimed, crippled, blind or etc could never access the Tabernacle or Temple) Remember how Abraham rescued Lot?
Life inside the Israelites was strict....you followed the rules or you were cast out to the wilderness. And that whole "chaos/death vx order/life" was repeated over and over again.
With the Law you had order, God's attention, love, blessings, and life. Without the law you had chaos, loneliness, misery, and death.
Which brings us to those who transgressed the Law....
It was not a "pay to play" type system. You would offer a sacrifice to beg God to not withhold his blessings for Israel on account of your poor actions of not being a good child of Abraham's. God would see the blood and remember his promise to Abraham. Using it as a "pay to play" system got "I desire mercy not sacrifice " from Jesus and Malachi.
I know that I have addressed this all extremely briefly....but I'm sure that you are more than capable of filling in the blanks I've left....especially the "another prophet like Moses" reference to Jesus.
The entire Torah (5 books of Moses) is a collection of 613 laws that the israelites were to follow so that they could know precisely how to behave just like their patriarchs, stemming from Abraham, whom received God's friendship. It also instituted the patriarchy system of governance.
The concept of Patriarchy is first revealed the most accurately in the story of Noah with Ham and in the pronouncement of the curse. Now where most people believe that Noah is "proclaiming Canaan's" future as created by God as a punishment its actually revealing Canaan's future that Ham is going to create into Canaan himself with Ham's attitudes and behaviors. IOW Ham is going to curse his own son by the attitudes and behaviors he exhibits.
So...
When it comes time for blessings the contrast is shown with Abraham. Wear clothes like Abraham wore, eat only foods like Abraham ate, cut your hair like Abraham, circumcise like Abraham, do the exact things Abraham did as if he is your biological father. (There is no Hebrew word for "forefather" or "grandfather" and the exact relationship is usually referred to by guessing) The 5th commandment is not really a focus on birth parents but more about Abraham and Sarah....disobedient children prohibitions are listed in Deuteronomy.
But with the things you do, wear, eat, and say you Now have the appearance as if you are a child of Abraham's and all the blessings that he had, you can now inherit. Most especially, access to God.
Now a bit more about patriarchy...
A patriarch was a family's access to God (very important) and your community representative. But that's not all. A patriarch was also to give everyone in his family a voice....to tend to the needs of the entire family from the best to the least. Each family was a communal lifestyle....all pulling together collectively for the good of the family by whatever profession. (Farming, fishing, shepherding and etc) all family "secrets" or skills of the family profession were just that....secrets. not keeping secrets or fulfilling your duties could get you tossed from the family and you would be Apostate or in ancient Egyptian "apiru" or more known today as Hebrew....meaning "worthless, homeless, without family bum. And a patriarch was supposed to look out for the least members of his family needs if he was a good one. And if you were a "least" and needed access to God your Patriarch was your person who did that for you....(maimed, crippled, blind or etc could never access the Tabernacle or Temple) Remember how Abraham rescued Lot?
Life inside the Israelites was strict....you followed the rules or you were cast out to the wilderness. And that whole "chaos/death vx order/life" was repeated over and over again.
With the Law you had order, God's attention, love, blessings, and life. Without the law you had chaos, loneliness, misery, and death.
Which brings us to those who transgressed the Law....
It was not a "pay to play" type system. You would offer a sacrifice to beg God to not withhold his blessings for Israel on account of your poor actions of not being a good child of Abraham's. God would see the blood and remember his promise to Abraham. Using it as a "pay to play" system got "I desire mercy not sacrifice " from Jesus and Malachi.
I know that I have addressed this all extremely briefly....but I'm sure that you are more than capable of filling in the blanks I've left....especially the "another prophet like Moses" reference to Jesus.
I suppose I bristle a bit at the language you keep using that seems to indicate a complete adherence to laws to receive blessings.
It is undoubtedly what God demands and Christ fulfills perfectly but it is not the experience of the Israelites as recorded in God's Word. In fact, they continually receive what they do not deserve because of God's mercy and for the sake of his ultimate promise that through Abraham would come The Seed. He doesn't even have mercy because they asked for it every time and the times they do ask they rarely accompany it with sacrifice or immediate obedience. The OT is a record of their CONSTANT failure and God's constant MERCY. Even Psalm 51 which is David's cry for mercy after Nathan confronts him about murder and adultery. He doesn't once plead with the Lord that he has obeyed and sacrificed according to the law for his sin, but rather pleads for the mercy of God with such a boldness that he then (without merit) asks for joy to be restored, for a clean heart, and a steadfast spirit.
Perhaps you can explain your language better but I have a hard time finding agreement with such a strong legal language that isn't supported by the OT people successes (or rather the lack thereof).
I look forward to your response.
It is undoubtedly what God demands and Christ fulfills perfectly but it is not the experience of the Israelites as recorded in God's Word. In fact, they continually receive what they do not deserve because of God's mercy and for the sake of his ultimate promise that through Abraham would come The Seed. He doesn't even have mercy because they asked for it every time and the times they do ask they rarely accompany it with sacrifice or immediate obedience. The OT is a record of their CONSTANT failure and God's constant MERCY. Even Psalm 51 which is David's cry for mercy after Nathan confronts him about murder and adultery. He doesn't once plead with the Lord that he has obeyed and sacrificed according to the law for his sin, but rather pleads for the mercy of God with such a boldness that he then (without merit) asks for joy to be restored, for a clean heart, and a steadfast spirit.
Perhaps you can explain your language better but I have a hard time finding agreement with such a strong legal language that isn't supported by the OT people successes (or rather the lack thereof).
I look forward to your response.
Of course they failed....and of course God still kept his promises.
But the culture and law that God, through the patriarch Abraham, created is still observed today. (Albeit incompletely )
The whole of the Old Covenant was an exercise that was to demonstrate to us that our righteousness is never ever going to be sufficient to obtain Heaven/access into the Garden.
It wasn't as if the Israelites didn't try. Oh they really tried through several means. But their only consistency was in their failure.
Harsh punishment was of course tried....
When the Israelites were wondering in the wilderness for 40 years those people who defied God (and Moses) died...often by some curse of snakes, plague, or some malady. By the time Joshua led them into the Promised Land only one guy (and his family) disobeyed and took money and an expensive robe. But the fact that everyone else did not spoke volumes about their obedience rate. It was perfect. But in just a generation the Israelites were well on their way to disobedience again.
Part of the contract of the Old Covenant was that God gave blessings to those who followed the Law (within reason) and curses to those who didn't. But it still was not enough incentive for people to follow the law. They disobeyed until they went into captivity...and also afterwards. (Ezra was ready to pull his hair out over their behavior)
It took Herod the Great to actually get the Israelites to build a decent Temple complex. (Theirs was pathetic after their exile...but it was there)
Enter Jesus....
Enter the New Covenant.
Of course God requires perfection....but needed to extend grace continually. That was obvious. I thought that this was a given considering your extensive knowledge. I'm not a legalistic advocate for strict adherence to the law for salvation....I use Jesus's righteousness as I have none of my own. I just enjoy studying and discussing scriptures with another person who has done the same.
But the culture and law that God, through the patriarch Abraham, created is still observed today. (Albeit incompletely )
The whole of the Old Covenant was an exercise that was to demonstrate to us that our righteousness is never ever going to be sufficient to obtain Heaven/access into the Garden.
It wasn't as if the Israelites didn't try. Oh they really tried through several means. But their only consistency was in their failure.
Harsh punishment was of course tried....
When the Israelites were wondering in the wilderness for 40 years those people who defied God (and Moses) died...often by some curse of snakes, plague, or some malady. By the time Joshua led them into the Promised Land only one guy (and his family) disobeyed and took money and an expensive robe. But the fact that everyone else did not spoke volumes about their obedience rate. It was perfect. But in just a generation the Israelites were well on their way to disobedience again.
Part of the contract of the Old Covenant was that God gave blessings to those who followed the Law (within reason) and curses to those who didn't. But it still was not enough incentive for people to follow the law. They disobeyed until they went into captivity...and also afterwards. (Ezra was ready to pull his hair out over their behavior)
It took Herod the Great to actually get the Israelites to build a decent Temple complex. (Theirs was pathetic after their exile...but it was there)
Enter Jesus....
Enter the New Covenant.
Of course God requires perfection....but needed to extend grace continually. That was obvious. I thought that this was a given considering your extensive knowledge. I'm not a legalistic advocate for strict adherence to the law for salvation....I use Jesus's righteousness as I have none of my own. I just enjoy studying and discussing scriptures with another person who has done the same.
Well as far as whether it is obvious or as it relates to my "extensive" knowledge - I will always argue my extreme ignorance and novice understanding of all that God has to say, hoping all the while I might have confidence to say what scripture says and the humility to be corrected by what scripture says.
As it regards my question to you, I asked it because of my ignorance of your meaning not my doubt in scriptures statements or examples.
At this point and by your explanation we have more agreement than disagreement, I just get a little uncomfortable with some of the characterizations you tend to use like when you use the word "incentive" and other such phrases.
From my humble opinion of what the whole of scripture is teaching is that the OT and the NT are not disconnected (not plan a and plan b) but a part of the greater covenant between God the father and the Son from before the foundation of the world. You will see this discussed in history as the Covenant of Redemption in Christians' attempt to understand many passages which allude to this, including the idea in Hebrews that God never intended that the OT people would be saved differently than ourselves.
"And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect." They were not willed by God to be saved differently or even by other means that were less than perfect than by those means ordained for us. All things pointed forward to the messiah - to something better. Even the temple which was patterned after what Moses saw in Heaven (of all places outside of time) is clearly explained to be about Christ in the NT. There are not two heavens nor are their two salvations. What Moses saw was what the people needed to see to teach them to look for something more and as scripture it was all recorded for our sake that in the fullness of time (Christ's coming) we might understand this mystery which was hidden from them.
I also disagree that momentary obedience equals generational obedience. You seem to say that because only one guy sinned at this one particular point that it took a generation for them to mess up again. Yet it was that very same generation that would later disobey again and as they split up the land they would continue to disobey not fully expelling the Canaanites in their different areas of inheritance (and the list goes on).
So all that said, I don't think we are in much disagreement and what disagreement it may seem that we have may be more attributed to the inferior form of communication over chat rooms rather than face to face.
Respectfully...
As it regards my question to you, I asked it because of my ignorance of your meaning not my doubt in scriptures statements or examples.
At this point and by your explanation we have more agreement than disagreement, I just get a little uncomfortable with some of the characterizations you tend to use like when you use the word "incentive" and other such phrases.
From my humble opinion of what the whole of scripture is teaching is that the OT and the NT are not disconnected (not plan a and plan b) but a part of the greater covenant between God the father and the Son from before the foundation of the world. You will see this discussed in history as the Covenant of Redemption in Christians' attempt to understand many passages which allude to this, including the idea in Hebrews that God never intended that the OT people would be saved differently than ourselves.
"And all these, though commended through their faith, did not receive what was promised, since God had provided something better for us, that apart from us they should not be made perfect." They were not willed by God to be saved differently or even by other means that were less than perfect than by those means ordained for us. All things pointed forward to the messiah - to something better. Even the temple which was patterned after what Moses saw in Heaven (of all places outside of time) is clearly explained to be about Christ in the NT. There are not two heavens nor are their two salvations. What Moses saw was what the people needed to see to teach them to look for something more and as scripture it was all recorded for our sake that in the fullness of time (Christ's coming) we might understand this mystery which was hidden from them.
I also disagree that momentary obedience equals generational obedience. You seem to say that because only one guy sinned at this one particular point that it took a generation for them to mess up again. Yet it was that very same generation that would later disobey again and as they split up the land they would continue to disobey not fully expelling the Canaanites in their different areas of inheritance (and the list goes on).
So all that said, I don't think we are in much disagreement and what disagreement it may seem that we have may be more attributed to the inferior form of communication over chat rooms rather than face to face.
Respectfully...
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