Pre-Trib/Mid/Post Trib? We will know for sure (?) in a couple months

excitement police on patrol! guessers didnt have a ton of scripture backing it up until now. Check out the new wine videos on youtube that generation 2434 and Dr. Barry Awe did. Then come back and refute it with as much Scripture they used to support it. You can't. And won't.

You are like the pharisees Jesus rebuked for not knowing the times. How does that make you feel? Seethe.

lol Okay sport, you win.

You're right, I won't.

If Jesus didn't know the day or hour, neither does anyone else. Yes, He said day or hour, not year, but I'm not letting that interfere with what I believe was His overall meaning. If you have a special insight into the mind of the Father, then go nuts. I'll let you to that, but I will speak out against it, as I have.

As for me, I'm going to continue to avoid interpreting prophecy through the headlines -- unless it's "World Peace Declared by Charismatic New Leader in Rome" or something... and just try to be as alert and as ready as I can.

Exacta-freakin-mundo. Thank you. This is why -- and I reiterate -- I hate this crap of trying to pin down the date of Christ's return or rapture or whatever.

People don't learn. We've had so many people go out and do this through the years, and the only thing we've succeeded in doing was to give the world ammo against us.

People thought the papacy was the beast -- millions of Christians killed, apparently, and something about "mystery" being on his hat or something. I dunno.

Hitler was the rise of the beast.

Mussolini was the rise of the beast.

The ECC in the 1970s was the 10 horns of the beast. Until they became 27.

Yes, there's a lot going on. But, it doesn't get to start until the Holy Spirit gets out of the way. Until then, I'm going to live my life, and concern myself with the spiritual and political state of my own country.

I have discernment, and I will tell you plainly that there is no way in the world that Jesus is returning in the year 2030.
Not even close. The covenant that Daniel wrote about involves a rebuilt temple in Jerusalem, and what you linked to has absolutely nothing at all to do with that.

And you have a mountain of evidence stating Christ will not return in 2030? You can refute every prophecy told in this video? Please....refute away:

This makes so much sense as to why THERE CANNOT BE A POST TRIB RAPTURE:

[The posttribulation position holds that] at the end of the Tribulation all living believers will be raptured, given resurrection bodies, and return immediately to earth in the single event of the rapture and second coming. This would seem to eliminate all redeemed, unresurrected people from the earth at that point in time so that there would be no one left to populate the millennial kingdom. If the wicked survivors are either killed or consigned to Hades at the end of the Tribulation, then there will be no one left in an unresurrected body to enter the Millennium.


It is obviously impossible to incorporate a translation of all saints at the end of the tribulation and the beginning of the millennium as it would result in all saints receiving a spiritual body, leaving none to populate the earth in the millennium.

There is the additional problem of how to explain the Sheep and Goat Judgment (Mat. 25:31-46) which makes no mention of a resurrection. It is a judgment of the living nations at the time of Christ’s return (Mat. 25:31). If all the people of faith rise in the Rapture at the end of the Tribulation and then return with Christ to earth, who are “my brethren” and the “sheep,” both of which find entry into God’s kingdom?


Furthermore, an adjustment has to be made in the time of the judgment of the sheep and goats in Mat. 25:31-46 if the posttrib picture is correct. The reason is simple: If the rapture occurs after the Tribulation, then all the sheep (redeemed) will have been removed from the earth; thus, there would be no sheep to be part of that judgment if it occurs at the second coming, which is a single event with the rapture [in the posttribulational view].


These are weighty arguments against the notion that the Rapture occurs at the Second Coming of Christ—that they are one and the same even.

There is no need whatsoever for me to watch your garbage video. I already know what the word of God teaches on the matter, and your post that I only partially quoted was riddled with error.

Actually, it is a bunch of nonsense.
This much is true.
Huh?

How are you using the word "populate" here?

Do you mean to populate as in to reside there, or do you mean to populate as in generating new life through sexual intercourse?

If it is the former, then you just rightly noted that all the resurrected saints will return immediately to earth, so how can you now say that there would be no one left to populate the millennial kingdom?

Where do you believe the millennial kingdom will be?

According to scripture, it will be here on earth, and it will be partly inhabited or populated by the resurrected saints who will reign and rule with Christ for 1000 years.

If you meant the latter, then I don't know where you got the notion from that saints will be generating new life during Christ's millennial reign.
Nowhere does the Bible teach that all of the wicked will be killed or consigned to Hades at the end of the tribulation.

Here is but a sample of what the Bible actually teaches on the matter:

Daniel 7:11-12

"I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame. As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time."

Beasts, in Bible prophecy, represent kings and their kingdoms.

Daniel 7:17

"These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth."

Daniel 7:23

"Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces."

When Daniel foresaw the beast being slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame, this is what he was referring to:

Revelation 19:19-20

"And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."

The beast, or the Antichrist, will be confined to the lake of fire at Christ's second coming which ushers in his millennial reign. As Daniel also correctly foresaw, the rest of the beasts, or the rest of the kings and their kingdoms, had their dominion taken away, yet their lives were prolonged for a season and a time. In other words, not all of the wicked will be destroyed at Christ's second coming or immediately after the tribulation period. Instead, they will continue on until the end of Christ's millennial reign, and then they will be judged. Revelation chapter 20 gives a very good description of the scenario that I just described.
Again, huh?

As I already explained, the millennial kingdom will be plenteously populated or inhabited by Christ, the Christians who will be reigning with him for 1000 years, and the wicked who will yet be alive at that time and who will be reigned over by Christ and the Christians for those same 1000 years.

I will address your other objections in a future post because I am not sure how much space I am allotted for a single post. It might not be until tomorrow.

I believe I presented my case a lot better. Sorry.

finger in ears and eyes wide shut! way to go!

Nope.

The voice of the good shepherd in my ears, and no stranger will I follow.

Oh, and my eyes are ever set upon the Lord and his word.

Just more nonsense.

In reality, what Jesus said in Matthew chapter 25 was a continuation of what he previously said in Matthew chapter 24.

Matthew 24:29-31

"Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Immediately after the tribulation of those days, Jesus is seen coming in the clouds of heaven with great glory and with his angels. Now, compare this with what Jesus continued on to say:

Matthew 25:31-34

"When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:"

This coming of Christ with his holy angels is the same exact coming that we just read of in Matthew 24:29-31, and there is clearly a gathering together of his elect there or a resurrection of the saints.

As far as the separating of the sheep and goats is concerned, that will occur when Christ sits upon the throne of his glory or at the great white throne judgment at the end of Christ's millennial reign. It is at that point in time, as Paul told the saints at Corinth (1 Corinthians 15:19-28), that Christ will deliver up the kingdom to his Father, and the blessed sheep or the saints will inherit the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world. Of course, just prior to that, the unrighteous will be eternally damned and cast into the lake of fire where they will suffer the second death. This is not only Paul's eschatology, but it also Christ's eschatology, and John's eschatology in the book of Revelation. In fact, it is everyone's eschatology in the Bible. Well, except, perhaps, for that of false teachers, false prophets, false brethren, and the like, and there are no shortage of such types running around in our own day and age.
They are the resurrected saints who will have been part of the first resurrection which coincides with Christ's second coming and the ushering in of his millennial reign. At the end of Christ's millennial reign, Christ will deliver the kingdom up to his Father, and that is when the sheep will find entry into God's kingdom or the kingdom of the Father.
The only thing that needs to be adjusted is your wrong eschatological beliefs. Again, at the rapture/second coming, the saints will receive their glorified bodies with which they will reign and rule here on earth with Christ for 1000 years or during his millennial reign. The judgment of which you are referring does not occur at the time of the rapture/second coming. Instead, it occurs at the end of Christ's millennial reign.
Not even close.

if we go by the words spoken by Jesus, we could get the idea when He does Return, it likely could be Summer or just after Summer.

Matthew 24:32-33
“From the fig tree learn its lesson: as soon as its branch becomes tender and puts out its leaves, you know that summer is near. So also, when you see all these things, you know that he is near, at the very gates.

I mentioned the other day that I wanted to share on Christ's parable of the wheat and the tares, and now would be a very good time for me to do that.

First, the parable:

Matthew 13:24-30

"Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn."

Now, Christ's interpretation of the parable:

Matthew 13:36-43

"Then Jesus sent the multitude away, and went into the house: and his disciples came unto him, saying, Declare unto us the parable of the tares of the field. He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one; The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels. As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear."

Please notice that the harvest is the end of the world, and not the end of the tribulation period.

Also, please notice the distinction between "his kingdom", which, in context, is Christ's kingdom, and "the kingdom of their Father".

This is extremely important because, as I have been saying here, Jesus' kingdom rule will last for 1000 years or during his millennial reign, and then, at the end of his millennial reign, he will deliver up the kingdom to his Father.

Let me pause here for a moment to remind everyone of Paul's words to the saints at Corinth.

1 Corinthians 15:19-28

"If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith, all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all."

Some important points that we must take away from what we just read:

1. Christ is the firstfruits of them that slept or the first person to be raised from the dead unto eternal life.
2. At Christ's coming, and not comings, they that are Christ's will similarly be raised from the dead unto eternal life.
3. Then comes the end, when, or after, he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father. Again, there is a distinction being made here between Christ's kingdom and the kingdom of the Father after Christ delivers it up to him.
4. Christ's kingdom will be delivered up to the Father when he shall have put down all rule, and all authority, and power for he must reign, for 1000 years, or during his coming millennial reign, until he has put all enemies under his feet, and the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. We know, from Revelation chapter 20, that death and hades are cast into the lake of fire at the end of Christ's millennial reign, so that is the timeframe that we are dealing with here.
5. When all things have been subdued to Christ's rule, then shall the Son also himself, or then shall Jesus, be subject unto the Father who put all things under him that God may be all in all.

With these facts in mind, let's look back to Jesus' interpretation of the parable of the wheat and tares that we read earlier.

Again, in the timeframe which Christ himself established in that parable, or at the end of the world, and not at the end of the tribulation period, the reapers or the angels shall gather out of his kingdom, or out of Christ's kingdom which will have lasted for 1000 years, all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth. Of course, this perfectly coincides with what we read in Revelation chapter 20, or with what we read in relation to what will ultimately transpire at the great white throne judgment. There, like here in this parable, the tares are burned first, or the wicked are cast into the lake of fire first. Then, or after this, the righteous shall shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father, and not in the kingdom of Christ. Again, Christ delivers his kingdom up to the Father at the end of his coming millennial reign.

I'll end with the words of Jesus:

Who has ears to hear, let him hear.

Yup - I always liked Watchman Nee's version: "The ones who "GO" when the trumpet sounds, are the ones who react with JOY that their deliverance has come. the ones who are LEFT, are the ones that look back in concern about what they're leaving (the "Lot's wife thing").

Btw, we have a very concise description of everything that I covered in my last post in what follows:

Daniel 12:1-3

"And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever."

Notice the order of events.

First, Michael stands up, and there shall be a time of trouble or tribulation such as this world has never known before, and this perfectly coincides with what we read in Revelation chapter 12 in relation to Michael and his angels casting Satan and his angels down to this earth. When they will be cast down, Satan will come down with great wrath because he will know that he only has a short time, or 3 1/2 years, and this is the actual timeframe of the tribulation period.

Second, many of them that sleep in the dust, or the dead in Christ, shall awake, or be a part of what the book of Revelation calls "the first resurrection". Seeing how it is the first resurrection, and seeing how it coincides with Christ's return and the ushering in of his millennial reign, there was no other resurrection prior to it in a non-scriptural pre-tribulation rapture.

Third, some awake, or are resurrected, to shame and everlasting contempt, and we know from Revelation chapter 20, that this occurs at the end of Christ's millennial reign.

Fourth or finally, they that are wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament and as the stars forever, and this is precisely what Jesus was referring to when he said "then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father" (Matthew 13:43), and this "then" is after Christ's millennial reign or when he shall deliver the kingdom up to his Father.

There is perfect harmony between what Daniel, Jesus, Paul, and John taught on this matter, and none of them taught the popular, yet extremely erroneous, pre-tribulation rapture nonsense. if I were you, then I would align my beliefs with those of Daniel, Jesus, Paul, and John.

^ @seekingthemindofChrist ,

Hi seeking,

Consider the similar language used between this Daniel 12:2 passage you've quoted, and that found in Isaiah 26:13-21 (I won't quote it here, for its length, but please do go read this passage); I'm often posting about these passages, and related ones, but here I'm just going to place a succinct commentary, below, that basically says what I'm often pointing out about these passages (and a related passage not mentioned in his commentary: Romans 11:15, saying the same thing, about the same persons, "For if the casting away of them [Israel] be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them [Israel] be, but LIFE FROM THE DEAD?"--That is, likening this to a "resurrection," though not being a physical resurrection from being formerly physically dead, but rather, Israel coming up out of the graveyard of nations, where scattered--a number of passages speak to this matter, and liken it to a "resurrection"):


[quoting from commentary by Gaebelein]

"Isaiah 26:1
In that day shall this song be sung in the land of Judah; We have a strong city; salvation will God appoint for walls and bulwarks.

CHAPTER 26 Judah’s Glory Song

1. Praise for Jehovah’s faithfulness and mercies (Isaiah 26:1-6) 2. The experiences of waiting during the night (Isaiah 26:7-11) 3. The assurance of peace and deliverance (Isaiah 26:12-18) 4. Assurance of restoration and preservation (Isaiah 26:19-21) We call attention to verses 12-21. Annihilationists base upon these words the evil doctrine that the wicked are not raised, but destroyed. The fact, however, is that Isaiah 26:13 and Isaiah 26:14 do not teach a physical resurrection. The teaching is that the lordship of other nations over Israel is forever gone. No other lords will ever rise again to domineer over Israel.
Death and resurrection are often used in the Old Testament as symbols of Israel’s national death and national resurrection. See Hosea 6:2; Ezekiel 37:1-28; Daniel 12:2 and Isaiah 26:19 of the present chapter.

-- Isaiah 26 Gaebelein's Annotated Bible (biblehub.com)


[end quoting commentary by Gaebelein; bold mine; recall my comment adding Rom11:15[,25,26,27-29] (corresponding with both Isa27:9,12-13/Matt24:29-31 and Dan9:24) to this list of passages speaking to this matter: likening it to a "resurrection," including this Dan12:2 passage, and which is distinct from Dan12:13 which IS a physical/bodily resurrection]







I hope you will thoughtfully consider the various passages listed in this post, and ponder that these are speaking of Israel coming up out of the graveyard of nations, where scattered... and this is likening it to a "resurrection" (but isn't a physical / bodily resurrection from the dead).

= )


Please read carefully: Hosea 5:14-6:3... Daniel 12:1-4... Isaiah 26:13-21... Ezekiel 37:12-14,20-23... Romans 11:15[,25,26,27-29 and Isa27:9,12-13 (Matt24:29-31) / Dan9:24... all of these regarding "Israel's FUTURE"--likening this (in each main passage) to a "resurrection"]

Very good post.

Agreed.

Both Matt25 and Matt13 (upon which the Matt24-25 response by Jesus was BASED) are speaking of the "still-living" persons at the END of the Trib, and that ONLY the "righteous" [/"blessed" / saved] persons/mortals of them will ENTER the MK age (in mortal bodies)--not the Wicked / "cursed" ["tares" / unsaved] persons... though these saved mortals will bear children / reproduce, and those children / grandchildren are not "born automatically righteous" (these offspring will be the only ones susceptible to "death" in the MK age, death being much more rare in the MK age, reserved only for the rebellious; But this is also how it can be said, by the end of the MK age, "the number of whom is as the sand of the sea" Rev20:8; note also that Matt24:37's "as the days of Noe were..." [and parallels] corresponds with both the wording of Dan2:35c and Gen9:1 "fill / filled the [whole] earth");

The matter of the [rest of the] beasts having their lives prolonged for a season and time (Dan7:12), after their dominion was taken away, speaks of the ones in past history (not of the future one).