question: Can an unsaved person be baptized in the Holy Spirit?

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The_Watchers_2017

The_Watchers_2017

Banned
#61
Jun 20, 2022
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#61
First off, These Scriptures ALL take place AFTER the Resurrection.

Mk 16:15-16

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


Lk 24:46-48

46 and said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead,
47 and that repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
48 You are witnesses of these things

Mt 28:

18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,


Ever get the feeling, this was NEVER about Water Baptism, and Matthew 28 has been flubbed with because it should match Mark and Luke?

Let's say this is about BAPTISM, because, it is about Baptism.
I do not believe Jesus was ever talking about Water Baptism, but Baptism in the Holy Spirit.
Water Baptism is important, but I don't believe Matthew, Mark and Luke are saying Jesus is talking about Water Baptism, but Holy Spirit.
I think Catholics added Names and turned it into Water Baptism.

Just my understanding of these Scriptures. They all happened AFTER the Resurrection. Because the Promise of the Holy Spirit was coming. Jesus was saying they are Baptized in the Holy Spirit.



I also say this, because most read everyone's posts here and I have posted several times about the Church Father who wrote in the 5th and 6th Century, evidence of being Saved was Baptized in Holy Spirit and Speaking in Tongues.

and of course, we can also read Catholic history and know around the 6th Century, Catholics sent troops killing people who Spoke in Tongues.

No wonder people stopped Speaking in Tongues, they were being Murdered for it!


but anyway, I still believe Jesus is talking about Holy Spirit Baptized, not Water in Matthew, Mark, and Luke.
 
N

Niki7

Guest
#62
#62
Everlasting-Grace said:
Matthew 3:11
I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire.

Romans 6:3-4
Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?
4. Therefore we were buried with Him through baptism into death, that just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.


1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Colossians 2:12
buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

Your not saved until this baptism takes place. and only God can do this baptism.
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copy pasting scripture does not make what you say biblical

you fling the word 'baptize' around with random glee, attaching your interpretation to that word which again, is not biblical

water baptism occurs AFTER salvation in Christ. It does not save you

Spirit baptism also occurs AFTER salvation in Christ. However wonderful, that does not save you either

these two are not the same and you are confusing and mashing them together

we are saved only by faith in Christ. none of what I have said does away with baptism with or in the Holy Spirit. It is real but does not save anyone

you are using scripture out of context, have created no comments and seem to believe you have proved what you say

you are actually creating confusion and are saying that baptism in the Spirit saves us. none of that is biblical
 
Lamar

Lamar

Active member
#63
May 21, 2023
955
143
43
#63
The_Watchers_2017 said:
First off, These Scriptures ALL take place AFTER the Resurrection.

Mk 16:15-16

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


Lk 24:46-48

46 and said to them, “Thus it is written, that the Christ should suffer and on the third day rise from the dead,
47 and that repentance for the forgiveness of sins should be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.
48 You are witnesses of these things

Mt 28:

18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.
19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,


Ever get the feeling, this was NEVER about Water Baptism, and Matthew 28 has been flubbed with because it should match Mark and Luke?

Let's say this is about BAPTISM, because, it is about Baptism.
I do not believe Jesus was ever talking about Water Baptism, but Baptism in the Holy Spirit.
Water Baptism is important, but I don't believe Matthew, Mark and Luke are saying Jesus is talking about Water Baptism, but Holy Spirit.
I think Catholics added Names and turned it into Water Baptism.

Just my understanding of these Scriptures. They all happened AFTER the Resurrection. Because the Promise of the Holy Spirit was coming. Jesus was saying they are Baptized in the Holy Spirit.



I also say this, because most read everyone's posts here and I have posted several times about the Church Father who wrote in the 5th and 6th Century, evidence of being Saved was Baptized in Holy Spirit and Speaking in Tongues.

and of course, we can also read Catholic history and know around the 6th Century, Catholics sent troops killing people who Spoke in Tongues.

No wonder people stopped Speaking in Tongues, they were being Murdered for it!


but anyway, I still believe Jesus is talking about Holy Spirit Baptized, not Water in Matthew, Mark, and Luke.
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Your understanding of this subject is beyond fallacious, it is absurd.

All these mentions of baptism must have qualifier to mean water baptism??? Are you serious?

What was Bathsheba bathing in? Do we need a qualifier to know it was water? Have you thought this out?

When baptism is mentioned it would need a reason (qualifier) to mean something other then (H2O) water.
 
N

Niki7

Guest
#64
#64
Everlasting-Grace said:
Fail

The death of christ will do you no good unless you are baptized into that death by God.

you either have a comprehension problem, or just want to argue for arguments sake. lets hope you understand it now
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Are you going to become rude now? I will drop you faster then you can blink and I don't care what you think if that is the route you intend to take. If it is really rude I will report you.

I don't make threats.
 
N

Niki7

Guest
#65
#65
JonathanBentley said:
Water baptism is obedience to God. We are saved when we believe and should be baptized right away. Most churches don't emphasize baptism. You must be baptized after salvation. Too many times people don't confess publicly what they prayed and it dies. Without works faith is dead. We must be willing to profess our faith.
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Maybe you do not mean to, but you are making obedience to baptism sound like a 'work'

Is that your intention?
 
The_Watchers_2017

The_Watchers_2017

Banned
#66
Jun 20, 2022
6,460
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#66
Lamar said:
Your understanding of this subject is beyond fallacious, it is absurd.

All these mentions of baptism must have qualifier to mean water baptism??? Are you serious?

What was Bathsheba bathing in? Do we need a qualifier to know it was water? Have you thought this out?

When baptism is mentioned it would need a reason (qualifier) to mean something other then (H2O) water.
Click to expand...
nowhere does the word WATER and BAPTIZE connect or mentioned in proximity of these Verses.
in fact, WATER, is NOT mentioned Anywhere in these Verses!
You are a Deceiver!
 
N

Niki7

Guest
#67
#67
Seorsum said:
A myth? Why would you think that?
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He is a cessationist and has created many threads with the intent to discredit all gifts of the Spirit and especially 'tongues'

His mission in life appears to be denying anything in scripture that requires spiritual understanding.

Hope that helps.
 
The_Watchers_2017

The_Watchers_2017

Banned
#68
Jun 20, 2022
6,460
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#68
Jesus, said to be SAVED, or born of God, is to be BORN of the Spirit, not INTO.
Matthew 28, Mark 16, Luke 24 are ALL talking about how we are being SAVED.
how are we going to be born of God, or of the Spirit?

It's about the Holy Spirit Baptism.

and why Water is nowhere mentioned!
 
The_Watchers_2017

The_Watchers_2017

Banned
#69
Jun 20, 2022
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#69
i love that thumb's down, it means, i only have a worthless opinion, not Scripture like you have to prove your point.

I live in a reality of FACTS, not opinions!

Fantasy and God don't collaborate and will not mix.
 
S

Seorsum

Member
#70
Jul 27, 2023
36
8
8
#70
Lamar said:
"I believe he was telling him that a man must not only be born the first time, of woman, but then again of the Spirit." You believe that Jesus had to explain to Nicodemus that a man first had to be physically born before he could be spiritually born??? Do you really believe this?

“born of water” refers to physical birth. Unborn babies float in fluid in the amniotic sac for nine months. When the time for birth arrives, the amniotic sac bursts, and the baby is born in a rush of “water,” entering the world as a new creature." You made this up.

There is no reference of physical human birth being referred to as "born of water" in the Bible. "Born of woman" yes but never "born of water" . The term "breaking water" is rather modern and has no usage in the Bible. Jesus is not referring to "amniotic fluid" (that is silly) but is referring to water (H2O) baptism.

Your "school of thought" is well past conjecture and is more akin to grasping at straws.

On a side note: If a person must be "born of water" where would that leave children who die in the womb or murdered at abortion centers. Just a thought.
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I have no problem conceeding that point although there are still many that believe that, but my main point remains the same. Water baptism is not a condition for salvation.
It is by faith alone.
 
D

DJT_47

Well-known member
#71
Oct 20, 2022
1,064
189
63
#71
The_Watchers_2017 said:
i love that thumb's down, it means, i only have a worthless opinion, not Scripture like you have to prove your point.

I live in a reality of FACTS, not opinions!

Fantasy and God don't collaborate and will not mix.
Click to expand...
I have nothing to prove and your nonsense is not worth my time to refute. The clear words of the bible is quite sufficient. I don't offer opinions just scripture.

Peter says it quite well. Baptism saves us!

1st Peter 3:21

21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
 
S

Seorsum

Member
#72
Jul 27, 2023
36
8
8
#72
Lamar said:
This is what you wrote: "Well, except that salvation does not depend on any work."

I am asking you to simply supply the post# where DJT_47 wrote that salvation depends on a work. I am asking you this in order for me to trust your posts in the future. Surely this is not too much to ask?
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Post #39
Peter says baptism saved us. 1 Peter 3:21, so, you're not correct. Also, nowhere in the bible does it describe baptism nor its reason as you have. It is an outward expression of nothing, but rather a command that must be obeyed in order to secure our salvation.

Does that not say that you have to do more than have faith for salvation?
 
S

Seorsum

Member
#73
Jul 27, 2023
36
8
8
#73
DJT_47 said:
I have nothing to prove and your nonsense is not worth my time to refute. The clear words of the bible is quite sufficient. I don't offer opinions just scripture.

Peter says it quite well. Baptism saves us!

1st Peter 3:21

21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
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There is a reason Paul went to the Gentiles and Peter to the Jews. There is a reason Paul went to the council. There is a reason Paul agreed to a vow to show the Jewish believers he still upheld the law. There was a reason Peter told them to be baptized.
But nowhere does it contradict that it is by faith alone that we are saved.
Jesus summed it all up in two commandments and neither mentioned water.

Do you agree with this:
Ephesians 2:8-9
"For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast."

It's the same as the Jews seeking to have the Gentiles be circumcised.
Same principal, just substitute water baptism for circumcision.

Gal 5
Listen! I, Paul, tell you this: If you are counting on circumcision to make you right with God, then Christ will be of no benefit to you. I’ll say it again. If you are trying to find favor with God by being circumcised, you must obey every regulation in the whole law of Moses. For if you are trying to make yourselves right with God by keeping the law, you have been cut off from Christ! You have fallen away from God’s grace.
But we who live by the Spirit eagerly wait to receive by faith the righteousness God has promised to us. For when we place our faith in Christ Jesus, there is no benefit in being circumcised or being uncircumcised. What is important is faith expressing itself in love'

The Mormon's teach that you are saved by grace after all you can do. You're arguement sounds a bit like theirs. Which just about every main-line Christian refutes.
 
S

Seorsum

Member
#74
Jul 27, 2023
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8
8
#74
DJT_47 said:
I have nothing to prove and your nonsense is not worth my time to refute. The clear words of the bible is quite sufficient. I don't offer opinions just scripture.

Peter says it quite well. Baptism saves us!

1st Peter 3:21

21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Click to expand...
Hmm, the like figure
Other translation: "and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also"

Again, reconcile it with by faith alone are you saved, apart from works, least any man can boast.
When we get to Heaven, I guess we should let him know.... Lord, just so you're aware, I did get my baptism as part of gaining my salvation.

This may help you:
Code: 
[URL]https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/the-importance-of-how-to-interpret-a-biblical-text.212049/[Code/][/URL]
 
The_Watchers_2017

The_Watchers_2017

Banned
#75
Jun 20, 2022
6,460
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#75
DJT_47 said:
I have nothing to prove and your nonsense is not worth my time to refute. The clear words of the bible is quite sufficient. I don't offer opinions just scripture.

Peter says it quite well. Baptism saves us!

1st Peter 3:21

21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Click to expand...
Peter has more Authority over the Words of Jesus, Whom, Peter serves?

in fact, Peter clarifies what Jesus said:

38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

^
Show me where WATER + Baptism is found together in this Verse?

oh wait, WATER, aint listed!
 
The_Watchers_2017

The_Watchers_2017

Banned
#76
Jun 20, 2022
6,460
1,330
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#76
DJT_47 said:
I have nothing to prove and your nonsense is not worth my time to refute. The clear words of the bible is quite sufficient. I don't offer opinions just scripture.

Peter says it quite well. Baptism saves us!

1st Peter 3:21

21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Click to expand...
oh, you mean have not a condemned conscience?

it saves us MENTALLY, not SPIRITUALLY!

show me where this is Spiritual?

because it's a MENTAL Condition. [but the answer of a good conscience]
 
Lamar

Lamar

Active member
#77
May 21, 2023
955
143
43
#77
Seorsum said:
Post #39
Peter says baptism saved us. 1 Peter 3:21, so, you're not correct. Also, nowhere in the bible does it describe baptism nor its reason as you have. It is an outward expression of nothing, but rather a command that must be obeyed in order to secure our salvation.

Does that not say that you have to do more than have faith for salvation?
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Again Seorsum, this is what you wrote: "Well, except that salvation does not depend on any work."

Post #39 has nothing in it that says anything about "saved by works". As a matter of fact the only mention of works by DJT_47 in this post is the following; "Baptism us not a work of anything or any law." You are simply being dishonest.

If you want to label baptism as a "work" that is your choice but please do not inject your personal understanding into another persons verbiage. Your words are misleading at best.
 
Lamar

Lamar

Active member
#78
May 21, 2023
955
143
43
#78
The_Watchers_2017 said:
Peter has more Authority over the Words of Jesus, Whom, Peter serves?

in fact, Peter clarifies what Jesus said:

38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

^
Show me where WATER + Baptism is found together in this Verse?

oh wait, WATER, aint listed!
Click to expand...
So what do you think they were baptized in, banana pudding??? Why would you think it was not water???
 
Lamar

Lamar

Active member
#79
May 21, 2023
955
143
43
#79
DJT_47 said:
I have nothing to prove and your nonsense is not worth my time to refute. The clear words of the bible is quite sufficient. I don't offer opinions just scripture.

Peter says it quite well. Baptism saves us!

1st Peter 3:21

21The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
Click to expand...
I must agree, his words are but nonsense.
 
Lamar

Lamar

Active member
#80
May 21, 2023
955
143
43
#80
The_Watchers_2017 said:
Jesus, said to be SAVED, or born of God, is to be BORN of the Spirit, not INTO.
Matthew 28, Mark 16, Luke 24 are ALL talking about how we are being SAVED.
how are we going to be born of God, or of the Spirit?

It's about the Holy Spirit Baptism.

and why Water is nowhere mentioned!
Click to expand...
"It's about the Holy Spirit Baptism." You are aware that "Holy Spirit Baptism" is metaphysical in nature? Please tell me that you are aware of this.
 
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