Does getting the "Trib" correct help?

@studentoftheword - when you understand the difference between 'condemnation' and 'tribulation' - you should be able to answer your own question...

The Dark Ages martyrs (the souls under the altar) experienced 'tribulation' but no 'condemnation'.

'tribulation' happens in this life; 'condemnation' happens afterward

When God says that there is no condemnation - He is not saying that there will be no tribulation.

It is not His tribulation. God says it is a war that satan wages against Christians in the last verse of Rev 12.

God says the saints are subject to the wrath of satan and that the saints will be killed by the beast.

Click to expand...

The word "Pre-trib" does not appear in the bible so why are you asking for a verse that has it?



Jesus is going to say something different than you do:


John 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them [tereo ek] from the evil one.

Jesus did not pray that God would take people out of this world to keep them from the evil one. That means Jesus does not approve of rapturing people out of this world to protect them from the evil one. Since Jesus does not approve of that then why do you (anyone reading that believes in a pre-trib rapture that takes people out of this world to keep them from the evil one) support such a concept?

No one is going to be taken out of the world so they can be "kept" from the evil one. That's not how God does things. The rapture is not an exception to that.

Anyone teaching a Pre-trib rapture is going directly against the teaching of Jesus in the above verse.

You haven't properly segregated the events described in Matt 24, Luke21, and Mark 13 nor read the history of the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD. The below provides a good blow-by-blow description of 70 AD. Follow the links.

https://www.bible.ca/pre-flavius-josephus-70AD-Mt24-fulfilled.htm

These Martyrs who's souls are under the alter are perceived to be Jews who were marked by God and have come to the faith during the tribulation and it is their souls that are crying out ------this has nothing to do with us the pre-Trib Saints or Church age Saints who I believe will be Raptured before the tribulation starts -----the 144,000 are Jews and are marked by God so they will all be saved in the end as God is keeping His Covenant Promise with His first nation ---the Jews refused to acknowledge Christ as their saviour and therefore are unbelievers -----but God out of His faithfulness ---love and mercy chose to mark the 144,000 and save them ----these 144;000 if you do your research are Jews who never married and are virgins ---Revelation 7----

The the many who believe that we the church age Saints will be going through the tribulation ---who are us now ----God Promise is to Protect His people -----from any vengeance -----we are already saved and therefore any of us who are alive that go through this horror God will have to honor His promise of Protection -----and no where in Revelations does God say anything about the church age Saints going through the Tribulation or give any hint as to what He would use the church age saints for ------there is no mention of God using us to preach the Gospel ---or to do anything during that time -----so to me that makes no sense that God would have all these Church age Saints running scared and bewildered and being slaughtered and have no use for them in some form of capacity---what is the point of the Church age Saints going through the tribulation --- ?????????????????????????????????????????????

You can read all here I am just posting this

https://www.bibleref.com/Revelation/6/Revelation-6-10.html

chapter 7's description of believers "sealed" by God, suggests these martyrs are Jewish believers converted during the time of the tribulation, not present-era Christians. Believers of the present, the "church age," are told to respond to maltreatment with kindness.
When Stephen, a church-age believer, was being martyred, he exemplified the manner in which Christians ought to respond to maltreatment. He cried out loudly, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." (Acts 7:60).

The souls under the altar recognize God's absolute right to have allowed their martyrdom. They address him as "Sovereign." They also attest to His holy character. Being holy, God cannot commit any wrongdoing. Therefore, God did nothing wrong in allowing their martyrdom. Further, they address God as "true," literally, "perfect." He did not, nor could He, make any mistake in allowing these tribulation believers to be martyred

Now this is pure baloney. "Made up Jesus"? "imaginary rapture"??? More ignorance on your part. And you are FALSELY ACCUSING sound Christian brethren of "loving apostasia". Which means that you are working for the Enemy on this forum.

Nope. Pretrib believes apostasia is not apostasy but rather a departure in the Rapture. It's horrifically poetic.

I have which is how I know that not any part of the OD has happened yet.

Apostasia is DEPARTURE FROM THE FAITH. Not the Rapture.

Being dead-set on a wrong eschatology can dreadfully impact a person's worldview; so, the advantage of being right, is that you're not wrong.

This stuff is in the scripture for a reason... I would feel really awkward trying to explain to God that I didn't want to "expend energy" to understand his word.

Now, I get that I'm a single guy, and that people with marriages, kids, and other arduous duties may not be able to expend the same energy as me on bible study, and that's reasonable. Everybody has their own level of due diligence- but everyone has SOME due diligence.

Sure but Pretrib believes apostasia is the rapture.

Great! You think you know. Goodbye. Think and believe what you like.

hello! In one sense all believers are looking forward to the return of the Lord, making the most of every opportunity and the time we have and looking forward to being with the Lord and together with loved ones who have passed on. However I also think that understanding what the bible says about the End Times is IMO important and can affect your worldview and your beliefs on other biblical topics. Obviously someone who believes they will be going through the destruction and strife of the Great Tribulation will have a somewhat different outlook than someone who believes they will be caught up before the Great Tribulation begins. Also the questions what is the purpose of the Great Tribulation and why would a believer go through it? That could influence what you believe about salvation, eternal security and the like. On a practical level are we preparing for years of Tribulation such as the world has never seen, plague, death and scorching, blood, fire and pillars of smoke? Or to meet the Lord in the air. God Bless

Church age Saints went through the horror of the Dark Ages. What was/is the point of that?

Both the souls under the altar and the ones they are waiting for to "be killed as they were" --- are all 'tribulation saints'.

If the souls under the altar are the future 'tribulation saints' as you think - who exactly are the group they are having to wait for?

If the 'tribulation saints' are the first group - who are the second group?

The Dark Ages martyrs are 'tribulation saints'.

The 'worship the beast or die' martyrs are 'tribulation saints'.

These are the two groups.

Think about it...

It is critical to get the truth of the 2nd Coming of Christ, and hence the Resurrection and Rapture correct, failure to do so will result in back-sliding and apostasy during the Great Tribulation, as Matt 24v45-25v13 demonstrates clearly!

After reading your post, I don't really know how to reply to it. You have so many things going on in it. Some I agree with and others, not so much. So I will attempt to slow it down a bit.

You are correct in saying that the Pre-Trib. Rapture is the one that carries some sense of purpose. You said: "..I can understand if Jesus takes us up if the rapture was before the Great Tribulation to wait things out..." It is not so much that we are being taken out so we can wait things out but to be kept safe from the judgements of God being poured out upon the world and the hardships these create. In this same way, Noah and the seven with him, rode safely above the wrath of the flood. God placed them in the Ark of safety. God closed the door behind them. They looked not upon the judgement of God which befell the whole world.

The 144,000, who are sealed Jews, for God's purpose during the Great Tribulation, are indeed witnesses. For who has ever heard of someone being "sealed" and not witnessing. Christians are sealed by the Holy Spirit, (2 Cor. 1:22; Eph. 1:13), and one of our principle works here on earth is to witness. Why, would you think these 144,000 would not witness for Christ?

As to Revelation 3:10, and it's promise - we need to take note of two things and this will require getting into the original Koine Greek to see the full understanding of this verse. You posted this: "I understand "keep thee from the hour of trial" to simply mean that God will keep our salvation in Him safely, not so much as take us out of the situation."

"..keep thee from the hour of trial...", is "τηρήσω ἐκ τῆς ὥρας τοῦ πειρασμοῦ". The first thing I wish to point out, is the Greek word ἐκ, which in most Bible translations is translated with the English word: "from", and this is OK; however, we need to understand the full implications of this Greek preposition. It carries the meaning of: "out of", as in taken out of or in our case "keep thee out of".

The second thing is the Greek word translated "hour" - ὥρας. Which carries the meaning of "a determined period of time". It has been translated with the English words: "hour", "day", "season". Here are a few examples, of it's use in Scripture, where it does not mean "hour":
Mat 14:15 And when even was come, the disciples came to him, saying, The place is desert, and the time is already past; send the multitudes away, that they may go into the villages, and buy themselves food.
1Th 2:17 But we, brethren, being bereaved of you for a short season, in presence not in heart, endeavored the more exceedingly to see your face with great desire:
John 5:35 He was the lamp that burneth and shineth; and ye were willing to rejoice for a season in his light.

If we put this all together... then we see that the promise is to keep believers "out of" this coming period of trial. Remember also, this is not just any "trial", this is the one that ".. shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth."

Only a Pre-Trib. Rapture can accomplish this purpose and mirror the OT safety of the Ark. The "Universal" church of believers shall be riding high above this which is to come upon the whole world.

I really don't know why I am replying to this post. I mean, this post and the others on this subject are crazedly mixed up. I will just say this in reply.

You stated:
The problems:

1. Obviously, it's only said about 1/7 of the churches so that isn't a pre-trib rapture of the whole church.


2, The fact that tribulation is mentioned for one of the other churches further disproves any idea that the church won't face tribulation. The truth is that neither is talking about the rapture or the great tribulation.

I have NO idea what your point is in #1.
1/7 of the churches? What are you talking about?

You obviously do not understand the difference between the "Local" aspect of the church and the "Universal" aspect of the church.