The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

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reneweddaybyday

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brightfame52 said:
reneweddaybyday said:
The word "reconciled" is translated from the Greek word katallássō which means decisively change, as when two parties reconcile when coming ("changing") to the same position.

God (the Party of the first part) established His eternal purpose in eternity past ... and He reconciled Himself to mankind through the death of His Son.

The believer (the party of the second part) is reconciled at the time he/she believes. At that point, both parties (God and the believer) came to the same position.

Those who reject God even as He reaches out to them are not reconciled to God ... not because God has not made provision for them, but because they reject that which God has provided for them to be reconciled to God.





Please note Paul also tells them WHEN "it was done !" :

Colossians 1:21 And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

Reconciliation takes place when a person believes ... i.e. the yet now of Col 1:21 ... not in eternity past.
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More unbelief of the Truth
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brightfame52 said:
reneweddaybyday said:
the Lord Jesus Christ died for all mankind ... all descendants of Adam:

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.





If they are "dead to God", then they are not "elect".





:rolleyes: ... the Lord Jesus Christ died for all mankind ... all descendants of Adam.





:rolleyes: ... outright blasphemy ... why do you allow such thoughts to come to your mind ... you need to reject these lies of the adversary the moment they enter your mind. however, you not only entertain the lies, you then submit them online in an open forum. smh



James 4:7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you.
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More unbelief !
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brightfame52 said:
reneweddaybyday said:
continue reading in John 12, brightfame52 ... here are verses within the context which you ignore in your futile attempt to align Scripture to your erroneous dogma:

John 12:35-36 Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth. While ye have light, believe in the light, that ye may be the children of light. These things spake Jesus, and departed, and did hide himself from them.

John 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.





:rolleyes: ... continue reading John 12:

John 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

John 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

All drawn will either believe on Him ... or reject Him.

Those who believe will become children of light (John 12:36) and will not abide in darkness (John 12:46).

Those who reject will be judged in the last day (John 12:48).





John 12:32 was not speaking of the day of His power.

In John 12:32 the Lord Jesus Christ was speaking of His crucifixion. According to John 12:33, He knew what death He would would suffer ...

Acts 8:12 speaks of His crucifixion as His humiliation and Hebrews 12:2 tells us He endured the cross, despising the shame ...

Believers are instructed to consider Him that endured such contradiction of sinners against himself, lest ye be wearied and faint in your minds (Hebrews 12:3).

quit manipulating Scripture in your futile attempt to align Scripture to your erroneous dogma! You are to align your dogma to Scripture and where you are in error, let go of the error.
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More unbelief
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:rolleyes: ... due to your inability to refute the central point, you engage in fallacious avoiding the issue tactics ...








 
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reneweddaybyday

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brightfame52 said:
reneweddaybyday said:
Romans 1:16 tells us that the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to those who believe.

Since Scripture clearly states it is the gospel which is the power of God unto salvation, whenever brightfame52 insists that anyone is saying salvation is conditioned "on the action of man", brightfame52 is offering up a red herring because Scripture makes it abundantly clear that salvation is wholly of God by grace through faith.







Romans 1:16-17 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it [the gospel of Christ] is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.
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More fostering of salvation by the actions of men, which is unbelief of what Christ accomplished for the elect by His saving, atoning death.
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:rolleyes: ... due to your inability to refute the central point, you toss up your red herring ...




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brightfame52

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reneweddaybyday said:
I have explained why John 12:32 was not speaking of the day of His power.

In John 12:32 the Lord Jesus Christ was speaking of His crucifixion. According to John 12:33, He knew what death He would would suffer ...

Acts 8:33 speaks of His crucifixion as His humiliation and Hebrews 12:2 tells us He endured the cross, despising the shame ...

Acts 8:33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.

Hebrews 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

In Acts 8:33, the crucifixion is referred to as His humiliation ... definitely not the day of [His] power spoken of in Psalm 110:3.

In Hebrews 12:2, the Lord Jesus Christ endured the crucifixion despising the shame ... definitely not the day of [His] power spoken of in Psalm 110:3.

Repeating your lie that in John 12:32 the Lord Jesus Christ is referencing Psalm 110:3 does not make your lie the truth.

What you are doing is known as the illusory-truth effect or believing something to be true if it's repeated often enough, even when it is false.





The Greek word pas means all without exception when pas is not associated with a modifying noun.

John 12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all [men] unto me.

In the case of John 12:32, the word "men" does not appear in the text ... so there is no modifying noun in the verse.

In John 12:32, the word pas is not modified by the word "men" ... nor is the word pas modified by the word "sheep" ... notwithstanding your attempt to associate John 12:32 with John 10:16 (another example of your poor workmanship for which you need to be ashamed – 2 Tim 2:15 ... but you're not :().

In John 12:32, the word pas means all. Period.

In John 12:33, Jesus clarifies that He was referring to His crucifixion ... His cross:

At the cross, we encounter God’s justice through the judgment of sin, God’s love and mercy through the forgiveness of sinners, and God’s power through His defeat of Satan (Romans 3:21–26; Colossians 1:13). At the cross, Christ brings salvation to those who believe and judgment to those who refuse to believe. In God’s wisdom and holiness, the cross opens the only way to the Father for sinners (John 14:6). At the cross, Jesus sets us free from the chains of sin. The lifting up of Jesus on the cross is the captivating influence that pulls human hearts to Him.​
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Earlier in John’s gospel, Jesus had said, “Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the wilderness, so the Son of Man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes may have eternal life in him” (John 3:14–15). The bronze snake raised up in the wilderness became a type—a prophetic symbol—of Jesus Christ’s crucifixion. As the serpent on Moses’ staff was raised up to offer deliverance and healing, so, too, would Jesus eventually be lifted up on a cross to offer eternal life. The snake was elevated on a pole so that all of Israel could see it and be healed, just as Jesus was lifted up on the cross so that all might see Him and be drawn to Him for salvation.​


there is no other way to the Father ... all must come to the Father through the Lord Jesus Christ:

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
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More opposition to the Truth
 
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reneweddaybyday

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brightfame52 said:
More opposition to the Truth
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nope ... here is your claim as stated in Post 1814

brightfame52 said:
Ps 110:3

3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

Thats what Christ is speaking of in Jn 12:32
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when scrutinized under the light of Scripture, your claim is rendered false.

The Lord Jesus Christ clarified in John 12:33 that He was referring to His crucifixion in John 12:32 ... not, as you claim "the day of thy power".

Acts 8:33 tells us the crucifixion was His humiliation ... definitely not the day of [His] power spoken of in Psalm 110:3.

In Hebrews 12:2, the Lord Jesus Christ endured the crucifixion despising the shame ... definitely not the day of [His] power spoken of in Psalm 110:3.

Philippians 2:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.


Clearly the crucifixion the Lord Jesus Christ spoke of in John 12 was not the day of His power.


As far as your misunderstanding of the Greek word pas, since you have no reply other than than to claim "More opposition to the Truth" with no explanation as to why I am opposing "the Truth", this is just another example of you engaging in the fallacy of avoiding the issue.



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reneweddaybyday

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brightfame52 said:
Argumentive unbelief
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:rolleyes: ... nope ... just more of your avoiding the issue fallacy because your dogma fails when the full light of Scripture shines upon its error.



Galatians 1:6-7 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
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reneweddaybyday

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brightfame52 said:
More conditioning salvation on the actions of men, despising the saving Death of Christ.
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:rolleyes: ... another red herring on your part, brightfame52 ...

I have always maintained that it is the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation ... not the "actions of men" as you accuse.

Romans 1:16-17 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it [the gospel of Christ] is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.


Since Scripture clearly states it is the gospel which is the power of God unto salvation, whenever brightfame52 insists that anyone is saying salvation is conditioned "on the actions of men", brightfame52 is offering up a red herring because Scripture makes it abundantly clear that salvation is wholly of God by grace through faith.





your attempt to re-direct the argument to an issue not under discussion has failed.


2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
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brightfame52

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reneweddaybyday said:
nope ... here is your claim as stated in Post 1814




when scrutinized under the light of Scripture, your claim is rendered false.

The Lord Jesus Christ clarified in John 12:33 that He was referring to His crucifixion in John 12:32 ... not, as you claim "the day of thy power".

Acts 8:33 tells us the crucifixion was His humiliation ... definitely not the day of [His] power spoken of in Psalm 110:3.

In Hebrews 12:2, the Lord Jesus Christ endured the crucifixion despising the shame ... definitely not the day of [His] power spoken of in Psalm 110:3.

Philippians 2:

7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.


Clearly the crucifixion the Lord Jesus Christ spoke of in John 12 was not the day of His power.


As far as your misunderstanding of the Greek word pas, since you have no reply other than than to claim "More opposition to the Truth" with no explanation as to why I am opposing "the Truth", this is just another example of you engaging in the fallacy of avoiding the issue.



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More opposition to the truth which is unbelief.
 
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brightfame52

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reneweddaybyday said:
:rolleyes: ... nope ... just more of your avoiding the issue fallacy because your dogma fails when the full light of Scripture shines upon its error.



Galatians 1:6-7 I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
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Your arguing against the Truth is a sure indication of unbelief.
 
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brightfame52

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reneweddaybyday said:
:rolleyes: ... another red herring on your part, brightfame52 ...

I have always maintained that it is the gospel of Christ which is the power of God unto salvation ... not the "actions of men" as you accuse.

Romans 1:16-17 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it [the gospel of Christ] is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.


Since Scripture clearly states it is the gospel which is the power of God unto salvation, whenever brightfame52 insists that anyone is saying salvation is conditioned "on the actions of men", brightfame52 is offering up a red herring because Scripture makes it abundantly clear that salvation is wholly of God by grace through faith.





your attempt to re-direct the argument to an issue not under discussion has failed.


2 Timothy 2:15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.
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You condition salvation on what man does, not upon what Christ has done to actually save Gods elect from their sins. Thats works salvation and it flat out denies salvation by Gods Grace.
 
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reneweddaybyday

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brightfame52 said:
More opposition to the truth which is unbelief.
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brightfame52 ... you avoid the issue because you cannot answer to Scripture. Your dogma fails when scrutinized under the light of Scripture ... and rather than hold to Scripture and let go of your error, you turn from Scripture and hold to your error.

1 Thessalonians 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.




brightfame52 said:
Your arguing against the Truth is a sure indication of unbelief.
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:rolleyes: ... that you consider your erroneous dogma "the Truth" is what is the "sure indication of unbelief".




brightfame52 said:
You condition salvation on what man does
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:rolleyes: ... nope ... salvation is wholly of God.

Romans 1:16-17 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it [the gospel of Christ] is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.


Since Scripture clearly states it is the gospel which is the power of God unto salvation, whenever you insist that I am saying salvation is conditioned "on the actions of men", you are offering up a red herring because Scripture makes it abundantly clear that salvation is wholly of God by grace through faith.


Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive
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reneweddaybyday

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brightfame52 ... your Post 1833 is a mess.

You quoted yourself and included my response to you as if you had made both statements.

You've done the same thing in the past.

Learn to use the "Preview" before you "Post reply" in order to avoid repeating your error in the future.


brightfame52 said:
Thats the Truth Im testifying to and you opposing !
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I do not oppose "the Truth" as stated in Scripture.

and, no, you are definitely not "testifying" to "the Truth" as stated in Scripture ... which is why you do not include context when you submit a verse here or a verse there and then try to align Scripture to your dogma.

You are to align your dogma to Scripture and where you are in error, let go of the error.


Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive
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brightfame52

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reneweddaybyday said:
brightfame52 ... your Post 1833 is a mess.

You quoted yourself and included my response to you as if you had made both statements.

You've done the same thing in the past.

Learn to use the "Preview" before you "Post reply" in order to avoid repeating your error in the future.



I do not oppose "the Truth" as stated in Scripture.

and, no, you are definitely not "testifying" to "the Truth" as stated in Scripture ... which is why you do not include context when you submit a verse here or a verse there and then try to align Scripture to your dogma.

You are to align your dogma to Scripture and where you are in error, let go of the error.


Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive
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Yes you oppose the Truth in unbelief.
 
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reneweddaybyday

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brightfame52 said:
Yes you oppose the Truth in unbelief.
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:rolleyes: ... nope ... you stated that I "condition salvation on what man does" ... which as explained, is nothing but red herring fallacy on your part.


Romans 1:16-17 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it [the gospel of Christ] is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein [in the gospel of Christ] is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Since Scripture clearly states it is the gospel which is the power of God unto salvation, whenever you insist that I am saying salvation is conditioned "on the actions of men", you are offering up a red herring because Scripture makes it abundantly clear that salvation is wholly of God by grace through faith.


Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive
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brightfame52

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All men drawn by virtue of Christ's Death ! 3

Yet another example of the word all being used to denote men individually in order to constitute an whole, that being the Children of God scattered abroad Jn 11:51-52

51 And this spake he not of himself: but being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for that nation;

52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad.


Some Translations use the word all as here Jn 11:52

52 Yet Jesus would not die just for the Jewish nation. He would die to bring together all of God’s scattered people. CEV

52 and not only for them, but also to bring together into one body all the scattered people of God.

52 and for God’s scattered children. This would bring them all together and make them one.ICB

Notice how His Death/Dying was to gather together in One whole, this is All the Children of God are to gathered together or we can say drawn to Him.

Now what's interesting is the words gather together here have the same meaning as draw does in Jn 12:32, its the word sunago and is used to draw in fish, to draw together, to collect Matt 13:47

47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: or all of every kind !

Also just as the word draw helko means to lead, impel, the same can be said for the word gather together sunago which means to lead together, made up of the verb ago which means :

I lead, I bring, drive, to impel, of power and influence affecting the mind like Lk 4:1; Rom 8:14; And so Jesus was saying that as a result of His Death, all His Sheep, or all the children of God, He will by spiritual power win over to Myself the hearts of them all.

Now how many religionist who often quote Jn 12:32 really believe and understand the Truth of it, that as a result of His Death, all His Sheep will be spiritually influenced to follow Him, to be persuaded to do so !
 
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reneweddaybyday

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brightfame52 said:
Some Translations use the word all as here Jn 11:52

52 Yet Jesus would not die just for the Jewish nation. He would die to bring togetherall of God’s scattered people. CEV

52 and not only for them, but also to bring together into one body all the scattered people of God.

52 and for God’s scattered children. This would bring them all together and make them one.ICB
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inasmuch as the Greek word pas (translated into English "all") does not appear in John 11:52, the addition by the translators is void of any authority to establish your dogma.

Your futile attempt to support your erroneous dogma has again failed.




brightfame52 said:
Now what's interesting is the words gather together here have the same meaning as draw does in Jn 12:3
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:rolleyes: ...

The words "gather together" in John 11:52 are translated from the Greek word sunagó which means to join together, join in one.

The word "draw" in John 12:32 is translated from the Greek word elkō which means to induce (draw in), focusing on the attraction involved with the drawing.

to infer that the words "have the same meaning" is error on your part and it's just another example of you ripping verses from the context within which the Author of Scripture has placed them in your futile attempt to align Scripture to your dogma.

God does not need you to align His word to your dogma ... you need to align your dogma to Scripture and where you are in error, let go of the error.




brightfame52 said:
the word draw helko means to lead, impel, the same can be said for the word gather together sunago which means to lead together, made up of the verb ago
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:rolleyes: ... just more of your twisting of words.

the Greek word sunagó is the Greek word sunagó.

the Greek word elkō is the Greek word elkō.

and, despite your wishful thinking, they are not one and the same ... nor are they interchangeable.

When God says sunagó He means sunagó ... when God says elkō He means elkō.




brightfame52 said:
how many religionist who often quote Jn 12:32 really believe and understand the Truth of it
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It's wholly obvious you are one of the "many religionist" who positively does not "believe and understand the Truth of it" as exhibited by your continual shifting of the meaning of words within verses of Scripture ... and your continual ripping of verses from the context within which the Author of Scripture has placed them.


Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive

Your Post 1837 is a prime example of sleight of men, and cunning craftiness ...


2 Corinthians 4:1-2 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.


READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
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brightfame52

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All men drawn by virtue of Christ's Death ! 4

Now the underlying reason for those all Sheep, or Children of God to be drawn to Christ, it is because they have been predestinated to the adoption of Children by Jesus Christ to Himself Eph 1:5

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Jn 11:52

52 And not for that nation only, but that also he should gather together in one the children of God that were scattered abroad. 38
 
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brightfame52

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reneweddaybyday said:
inasmuch as the Greek word pas (translated into English "all") does not appear in John 11:52, the addition by the translators is void of any authority to establish your dogma.

Your futile attempt to support your erroneous dogma has again failed.





:rolleyes: ...

The words "gather together" in John 11:52 are translated from the Greek word sunagó which means to join together, join in one.

The word "draw" in John 12:32 is translated from the Greek word elkō which means to induce (draw in), focusing on the attraction involved with the drawing.

to infer that the words "have the same meaning" is error on your part and it's just another example of you ripping verses from the context within which the Author of Scripture has placed them in your futile attempt to align Scripture to your dogma.

God does not need you to align His word to your dogma ... you need to align your dogma to Scripture and where you are in error, let go of the error.





:rolleyes: ... just more of your twisting of words.

the Greek word sunagó is the Greek word sunagó.

the Greek word elkō is the Greek word elkō.

and, despite your wishful thinking, they are not one and the same ... nor are they interchangeable.

When God says sunagó He means sunagó ... when God says elkō He means elkō.





It's wholly obvious you are one of the "many religionist" who positively does not "believe and understand the Truth of it" as exhibited by your continual shifting of the meaning of words within verses of Scripture ... and your continual ripping of verses from the context within which the Author of Scripture has placed them.


Ephesians 4:14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive

Your Post 1837 is a prime example of sleight of men, and cunning craftiness ...


2 Corinthians 4:1-2 Therefore seeing we have this ministry, as we have received mercy, we faint not; But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully; but by manifestation of the truth commending ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God.


READ YOUR BIBLE!!!
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More opposing of the Truth explained, thats unbelief !
 
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