The Glasgow razor boy and eternal security

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Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
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#1
I have been thinking, I don't crow very much online, when folks start sharing "stories" it can get out of control. But I've seen some things, I've been in revivals, I never got revived, I was baptised in the Holy Ghost from the getgo.
But thinking about another thread on the eternal security of those saved.


I thought about when I was working in a large detox in London run by Christians which also served the community as a "bail wing" for young folks who had been charged with a crime and were awaiting trial. We had a gang of boys down from Glasgow who were known as the Glasgow Razor Boys, it was quite high profile.

Now these boys whose trademark was to walk up to a victim and slash their face and laugh as their face fell apart, Glasgow was a rough old city in those days. But they heard that the Christians were getting excited about a thing called the baptism of the Holy Ghost. So on one of our bible meetings the leader of the gang turned up to mock.

But as the meeting commenced the colour drained from his face and he looked at me and said "ye believe in hell Jimmy" now I'm no hell fire preacher but I answered honestly that I did. He got up and made a rush [I ducked ...] but he was making for the door and fled. He went to see one of the Christians who actually was critical of our "shenanigans" but the lad got saved, God works that way, to Him be the glory.

Two more gang members got saved and a great persecution began between those who had been saved, a boy who had stolen a purse and run away to London also got saved, and those who did not get saved. Their doors were set alight and the mocking was merciless. But the lad held out and took it all. He had been a vicious razor boy and they had all been afraid of him.

Suddenly he broke. He grabbed one guy and pushed him across the kitchen and up against the wall. Everybody laughed at him ... the great Christian, it didn't last long.

I got a message "come down quick there's been an incident" when I arrived he was stretched on the floor bawling his eyes out. "Oh I failed Him, I'm lost. I can never come back to Jesus"

I said "praise the Lord, I'm so glad this has happened" Everybody looked at me "eh?" that kitchen was full of drunks and recovering druggies, chefs, washer uppers, servery staff etc, they worked the kitchen for their board "yes, yes I'm glad, don't you see this PROVES he was saved," We picked the lad up and calmed him down a little I asked him "in all those razor fights you had up there in Glasgow, you never had any remorse, you never wept or cried, this proves you've been changed, your heart is different. you can't lose your salvation"

I can give you all the scriptures, no problem for why salvation can never be lost but the truth is simple. God has so ordered His salvation with WEAK Christians in mind, for the tender lambs and the trembling sheep of His flock. It is with THEM in view that He makes salvation a once and forever work which can never be undone. God wants us to come BOLDLY to His throne of grace with complete confidence.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
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#2
It is with THEM in view that He makes salvation a once and forever work which can never be undone.
That is absolutely true. And there are many other reasons besides. But the enemy of our souls is constantly attacking the eternal security of the believer. And that is why everyone should be actually studying the Bible about this important truth.

Also the Lord Jesus Christ Himself is our Salvation. He is also called "God's Salvation" (the Salvation sent by God) many times. Then [Simeon] took he him [the Christ child] up in his arms, and blessed God, and said, Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word: For mine eyes have seen thy Salvation, Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; A Light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel. (Luke 2: 28-32)
 

Edify

Well-known member
Jan 27, 2021
1,559
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#3
My, my, here we go again.
It seems to me some people forgot what biblical time we're in.
How is it we believe in choosing Christ, but it's impossible to unchoose Him?
Why does the devil fight so hard to destroy us spiritually IF we can't be?
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
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#4
"Oh I failed Him, I'm lost.
Praise God that He was not duped by the fallacy of OSAS TULIP Calvinism and realized He needed to repent. I have another story for you...

Luke 15:
11And he said, A certain man had two sons:
12And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.
13And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.
14And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want.
15And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.
16And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him.
17And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
18I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
19And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
20And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
21And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
22But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:
23And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:
24For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

When a son departs, he needs to return with a spirit of remorse and repentance. Some will instead harden their hearts and refuse to return. Apostacy happens, and so does false teaching that says we do not have to repent of our sins and return home.

I suspect that some who start down Calvin Road do not consider all the error that comes along for the ride.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
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#5
I said "praise the Lord, I'm so glad this has happened" Everybody looked at me "eh?"
They had good reason to, no one should rejoice when a brother errs.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
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#6
How is it we believe in choosing Christ, but it's impossible to unchoose Him?
Why don't you ask a more pertinent question:
"Why would anyone stupidly "unchoose" Christ, after He has saved that person by His grace, and through His finished work of redemption, and given that person the gift of eternal life?"
 

Edify

Well-known member
Jan 27, 2021
1,559
656
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#7
Why don't you ask a more pertinent question:
"Why would anyone stupidly "unchoose" Christ, after He has saved that person by His grace, and through His finished work of redemption, and given that person the gift of eternal life?"
With televangelists who have fallen all over the place, millions leaving the church, & I guess you're going to say either they're still saved regardless or all these people weren't saved in the first place?
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have [e]fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, [f]since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
 

Chester

Senior Member
May 23, 2016
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#8
The issue of eternal security is not answered by supposed experiences or by stories: both sides of this theological issue can give stories . . . The question is simply what does the Bible say about who is it that will be saved?
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
5,219
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London
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#11
Praise God that He was not duped by the fallacy of OSAS TULIP Calvinism and realized He needed to repent. I have another story for you...

Luke 15:
11And he said, A certain man had two sons:
12And the younger of them said to his father, Father, give me the portion of goods that falleth to me. And he divided unto them his living.
13And not many days after the younger son gathered all together, and took his journey into a far country, and there wasted his substance with riotous living.
14And when he had spent all, there arose a mighty famine in that land; and he began to be in want.
15And he went and joined himself to a citizen of that country; and he sent him into his fields to feed swine.
16And he would fain have filled his belly with the husks that the swine did eat: and no man gave unto him.
17And when he came to himself, he said, How many hired servants of my father's have bread enough and to spare, and I perish with hunger!
18I will arise and go to my father, and will say unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and before thee,
19And am no more worthy to be called thy son: make me as one of thy hired servants.
20And he arose, and came to his father. But when he was yet a great way off, his father saw him, and had compassion, and ran, and fell on his neck, and kissed him.
21And the son said unto him, Father, I have sinned against heaven, and in thy sight, and am no more worthy to be called thy son.
22But the father said to his servants, Bring forth the best robe, and put it on him; and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet:
23And bring hither the fatted calf, and kill it; and let us eat, and be merry:
24For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found. And they began to be merry.

When a son departs, he needs to return with a spirit of remorse and repentance. Some will instead harden their hearts and refuse to return. Apostacy happens, and so does false teaching that says we do not have to repent of our sins and return home.

I suspect that some who start down Calvin Road do not consider all the error that comes along for the ride.
Ya know I've never studied Calvin, on purpose. Of course I am a lover of Spurgeon. But I can tell this is a complete mis-read of Calvin's position, a caricature.

Grace believers do not believe that we can sin without consequence, wilfully. We believe in keeping short accounts with God over sins, let's deal with them as they occur and not go backwards into a sin lifestyle. We believe the way of the backslider is hedged up with thorns. Even as the passage of scripture you have quoted shows clearly.

But the prodigal son DID return, he may have felt he had lost his sonship, the Father did not think so, every day he went to the gate and looked longingly, waiting for the day.

That's it, it's God's love, God's faith, He never gives up, He sends His Holy Spirit after the wayward one, reminding him always of the Father's love, of how kind God is. I tell you dear Oyster this IS the Pre-destiny and Election of the bible AND IT WORKS, it cannot fail and will not fail .... ever.

Yes yes we can weep and wail but the bible is the Father RAN to meet him, He had the best robe ready and the shoes and the ring, the calf was already fatted [takes time, preparation]

This is the faith of God we are relying on, it does not fail.
 

Evmur

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Feb 28, 2021
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#12
That is absolutely true. And there are many other reasons besides. But the enemy of our souls is constantly attacking the eternal security of the believer. And that is why everyone should be actually studying the Bible about this important truth.

Also the Lord Jesus Christ Himself is our Salvation. He is also called "God's Salvation" (the Salvation sent by God) many times. Then [Simeon] took he him [the Christ child] up in his arms, and blessed God, and said, Lord, now lettest thou thy servant depart in peace, according to thy word: For mine eyes have seen thy Salvation, Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people; A Light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel. (Luke 2: 28-32)
that's a great insight.
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
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#13
Or should the question be "How can God offer eternal life to sinners?"
I don't understand why it's so popular all of a sudden to deny the power of God and elevate the power of men. I guess God saves some for no reason so they can walk away later, and after our "born again card" has been punched then the rest is up to us and our ability to obey. Salvation is a free gift, but to them the sanctification is done 100% by our power. This is a false teaching and blatantly tries to take Gods glory for themselves. It's works based garbage they can't see, and I do not understand why it's argued so much here. These people are preaching the weakness and ignorance of God. This said, I get their point and even understand why they think this way, but even your "choice" was a gift you don't get credit for, lest you boast. We are slaves of sin or slaves of Christ, putting ourselves at the center of this story is a tragic mistake anyway, we are not in control even a little.

If we have to earn the right to keep our salvation, then we do get to boast.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
60,260
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#14
The issue of eternal security is not answered by supposed experiences or by stories: both sides of this theological
issue can give stories . . . The question is simply what does the Bible say about who is it that will be saved?

John 6:37
:)
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
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#15
With televangelists who have fallen all over the place, millions leaving the church, & I guess you're going to say either they're still saved regardless or all these people weren't saved in the first place?
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible, in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6and then have [e]fallen away, to restore them again to repentance, [f]since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God and put Him to open shame.
and yet they cry repent, repent, repent.

This scripture is simply saying that the repentance unto salvation is once and forever, it can't be repeated.

Instead of crucifying The Son of God again and again we go back to the one time sacrifice, we cling to that. People as say salvation can be lost THEY are the ones putting the cross and Him who died there to an open shame. Because people laugh and mock and say "there you see the cross does not work"

But the cross DOES work, it works for all time.

Millions do not fall away btw, millions are leaving the dead and alive churches ... many of them finding good spirit filled churches.
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
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#16
My, my, here we go again.
It seems to me some people forgot what biblical time we're in.
How is it we believe in choosing Christ, but it's impossible to unchoose Him?
Why does the devil fight so hard to destroy us spiritually IF we can't be?
the reason is because God chooses us, we don't choose Him. And knowing this is what makes our salvation eternally secure.
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
5,219
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London
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#19
My, my, here we go again.
It seems to me some people forgot what biblical time we're in.
How is it we believe in choosing Christ, but it's impossible to unchoose Him?
Why does the devil fight so hard to destroy us spiritually IF we can't be?
The devil can only destroy us if he can destroy our trust in God, our trust in His salvation. Next to being saved, our eternal security is the most important [and most precious] truth in the whole bible.
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
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#20
Why don't you ask a more pertinent question:
"Why would anyone stupidly "unchoose" Christ, after He has saved that person by His grace, and through His finished work of redemption, and given that person the gift of eternal life?"
Because they are stupid.
Stupid happens.