Is Baptism in water a work or a command? Is it necessary for salvation?

I agree the truth matters and I believe how one is saved is the very most important answer we need to get right. I disagree with your view on baptism so it is not part of salvation, would you mind start with answering, what must I do to be saved? And how would you support that with scripture.

So you thumbs it down, refuse to believe what the word means, despite evidence provided, and just continue on and make no effort in even defending the sprinkling view? And it says you are a licensed minister? The absolute state of "ministers" nowadays

There is one in this very thread who teaches no water baptism for today lol. mr Grace_ambassador and the hyper-dispensational people.

So you thumbs it down, refuse to believe what the word means, despite evidence provided, and just continue on and make no effort in even defending the sprinkling view? And it says you are a licensed minister? The absolute state of "ministers" nowadays

I already told you...believe on the Lord Jesus Christ.

I'm pretty sure you can get your "minister" license in WalMart, in the "novelties" section. A long time ago, you could get them in a box of Cracker Jack ....

When asked, "What must we do?" Peter did not say believe, because the hearers had already met that criteria. Peter's answer was, "Repent, and be baptized everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ for remission of sin and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost." Why? Because in order to experience the NT rebirth requires both belief AND obedience to the stated commands. (John 3:3-5, Mark 16:15-16, Acts 2:38-41, 8:12-18, 9:17-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-6, 22:16)

Also relevant to the topic is the fact that Jesus told Peter he would receive the KEYS to the kingdom. Not a single key, but keys. (Matt. 16:19) After receiving the indwelling presence of the Holy Ghost Peter did in fact present keys that make it possible to gain entrance into God's kingdom. (Acts 2:37-41) The same keys were offered to Samaritans, Gentiles and 12 individuals in Ephesus indicating that this truth applies to all.

One man's garbage is another man's treasure.

You are preaching to the choir here. I've been pushing verse 37 of Act 2 forever. This is where these people are born again. Acts 2:38 and following are the results.
What happened on Pentecost was not the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. It was the outpouring or baptism of the Spirit promised in Joel 2:28. It is also known as the promise of the Father that Jesus spoke of to the disciples when He told them to wait in Jerusalem until they should receive power.
The keys to the kingdom is a euphemism for authority. Jesus said He had the keys to death and Hell. He also said He had all authority, hence the great commission. Having the keys to death and Hell is the reason Jesus said I will build my church, and the gates of Hell will not prevail against it.
No one has ever been saved and not received the indwelling Holy Spirit. Salvation has not changed. It has always been by grace through faith. The operation of the Spirit under the old covenant was not as pronounced as it is in the new covenant, but every true child of God from Adam until whomever is last, has the indwelling of the Spirit.

I know you do not agree. However, scripture indicates that no one is born again until AFTER their sins are remitted and they have received the indwelling presence of the Holy Ghost. As revealed by the Apostle Paul, a person can believe yet still not have the Holy Ghost; "Have ye received the Holy Ghost SINCE you believed? (Acts 19:1-6) And this truth is confirmed as well in the Samaritan account recorded in Acts 8:12-18.

Actually, I think pouring has the best symbology. No need to "defend" the view. There's nothing I can say that you haven't already heard, such as, "no, the word doesn't mean only that."

I know you do not agree. However, scripture indicates that no one is born again until AFTER their sins are remitted and they have received the indwelling presence of the Holy Ghost. As revealed by the Apostle Paul, a person can believe yet still not have the Holy Ghost; "Have ye received the Holy Ghost SINCE you believed? (Acts 19:1-6) And this truth is confirmed as well in the Samaritan account recorded in Acts 8:12-18.

I was born again (indwelt by the Holy Spirit) before being baptized. So....

If Christ is not in us until after we are baptized, what are the implications of that?

Baptism seems to be the squirrely-word in these threads. Everyone wants to inject tub water into it.

I am genuinely interested in the alternative. Why do you think it fits the symbology best? The way I see it submersion equals "buried with Him" in baptism

I was born again (indwelt by the Holy Spirit) before being baptized. So....

As revealed by the Apostle Paul, a person can believe yet still not have the Holy Ghost; "Have ye received the Holy Ghost SINCE you believed? (Acts 19:1-6) And this truth is confirmed as well in the Samaritan account recorded in Acts 8:12-18.

I believe that faith (repentance implied or assumed) completes the conversion process and water baptism follows.

What you teach is salvation by faith + the work of baptism.

No. Luke 13:3 - unless you repent you will all likewise perish. Unless we repent (change our mind) we will not believe the gospel and be saved. (Romans 1:16)

Now confess is not a work for salvation. Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together. Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (TOGETHER) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess.

1 Corinthians 12:3 - Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except BY the Holy Spirit. There is divine influence or direct operation of the Holy Spirit in the heart of a person when confessing Jesus as Lord. This confession is not just a simple acknowledgment that Jesus is the Lord (even the demons believe that), but is a deep, personal conviction from the heart that Jesus is that person's Lord and Savior. So how can one believe unto righteousness (and still be lost?) and also, how can confession be made unto salvation when confession "precedes" water baptism if water baptism completes the conversion experience?

No it's not. Being saved 100% through faith would mean that we have placed our faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. We are trusting 100% in Jesus, what He accomplished to save us. Faith in baptism for salvation is not 100% faith in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ for salvation.

It's by or "out of" faith that we get baptized and accomplish other good works, yet faith is not baptism. Faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. (Hebrews 11:1) Prior to my conversion several years ago while still attending the Roman Catholic church, I basically defined faith "as" baptism and obedience in general. It was not until I placed my faith (belief, trust, reliance) in Jesus Christ alone for salvation that the light finally came on.

Of course Noah had faith. It was by or "out of" faith that Noah built the ark. Noah had already "found grace" (Genesis 6:8), was "a preacher of righteousness" (2 Peter 2:5), and "walked with God" BEFORE he built the ark. His obedience was a DEMONSTRATION of his faith and not the origin of it. Building the ark demonstrated that Noah believed God about flooding the earth and the ark saved Noah and his family (physically) from drowning. (Hebrews 11:17) If Noah would have refused to build the ark, then he would have demonstrated a lack of faith in what God told him about flooding the earth, but of course, that was not the case.



You mean through what is signified in baptism? No.

You don't believe that water baptism pictures the death, burial and resurrection of Christ? (Romans 6:3-5)

No. I'm simply saying the Bible does not say that baptism was the cause of them being added.

I can see you're as convinced that baptism is not necessary as I am that it is, so we might be wasting our time. You've got me thinking and hopefully you are to so that's a good thing.
I'm sorry but I obviously can't keep up with all the information you're putting out. I feel to reply to that much volume, each point is not given it's due diligence. I suggest if we could focus on a key point and discuss the replies before we move on to the next one that would be great.

I would like to talk about your reply for this verse.
16 The one who has believed and has been baptized will be saved; but the one who has not believed will be condemned.

This is your reply to that verse. I've changed the order of your points to put it in chronological order.


I suggest that this is an unfair "test". Would you apply the same "test" to repent/ance that you know is necessary for salvation. If repentance is required for salvation, then we would expect Jesus to mention repent/ance, not necessarily in those verses, but at least in the book of John. You know how many times repent/ance is mentioned in the book of John, zero.

The reason we see "believe" so much is because that is the first and most important step. Without belief, it doesn't matter at all what follows. Also, at this point in Jesus's ministry, He's trying to convince the Jews to believe that He is the Messiah.
I also suggest another reason we don't see it much at this point is because this is before Jesus commanded baptism in His name.


You are correct that condemnation rests on unbelief. The omission of baptism with "does not believe" shows that without belief nothing can save you.

So when Jesus does command baptism in His name, He says The one who has believed and has been baptized will be saved;
Jesus puts baptism with belief and before saved because the one who truly believes will be baptized in His name. If salvation came after belief and before baptism, Jesus would have said so but He didn't.
So that is the instructions Jesus gave the apostles for the great commission. Baptize the believers in the name of the Father, the Son and the HS. He who believes and is baptized will be saved.
The very first time we see people converted by hearing and believing the gospel, that is exactly what we see. This confirms Jesus's commandment and sets the precedent.
41 So then, those who had received his word were baptized; and that day there were added about three thousand souls.
The exact same order as Jesus instructed. You say it doesn't say baptism was the direct cause of them being added. I suggest it does. Only those who believed and were baptized (both past tense) were added.
Words are how information is communicated. If we even change the same words around, the meaning changes. If salvation came after belief as you say, it would read those who had received his word were added about three thousand souls and they were baptized. Same words rearranged, different meaning.


Again, this is before Jesus commanded baptism in His name.