kenosis . . ?

This is why it is difficult for you to understand this topic: the idea of "ownership" is grounded in a terrestrial understanding. So, when the will of Jesus is broached, it's like trying to fit Kingdom of God realities into earthly ideas. It doesn't work that way.

The Kingdom of God is about representation and, for things, stewardship. Why? Because the owner of all is God and the ultimate standard is God Himself. When God owns all, a discussion of ownership is moot. The origin of all things is God.

Jesus "only did what He saw His Father doing". This is the foundation of the Kingdom of God. Those who claim to represent God will only do what God is doing. By this principle, Jesus gave up His life for us. In fact, this is the manner in which He gave up His life and this occurred before He died on the cross. Certainly, the cross was part of His journey, but before the cross, Jesus gave up the right to govern His own life. He surrendered that right to the Father. This is what made Him "the only begotten Son". Because of this (Jesus only doing what His Father was doing) the Father conveyed the right to represent Him in all things to Christ Jesus. This is why one cannot say they receive the Father and simultaneously reject the Son. The Father has decided that only through the Son may one come to the Father. This is the absolute. The ideal of Heaven and its Kingdom.

To carry this further and to keep it within the boundaries of Kingdom understanding, Christ sends us in the same manner the Father sent Him: as representatives. "As the Father has sent me, so I am sending you" We, then, are beholden to the Son. Only by surrendering our own will may we participate in the benefits and power of the Kingdom. This is how, like Jesus, we become living sacrifices. Our standard of calling is the same standard of calling placed upon Jesus: Jesus surrendered His own will to the Father now, as Christ Jesus, we are called to surrender our will to Christ ("As the Father sent me, so I am sending you"). In this, there is no schism between the Son and the Father NOR is there schism between us and Christ, if we are led by the Spirit and not by the flesh.

At the end of the coming epoch this will be the reality:

"But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have [d]fallen asleep. 21For since by man came death, by Man also came the resurrection of the dead. 22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ’s at His coming. 24Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27For “He has put all things under His feet.” But when He says “all things are put under Him,” it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all.

The ultimate reality of everything is God the Father. If we are given any measure of power it is by God the Father that we receive it. The Son has been given the right to dispense anything the Father has but ultimately all is His (the Father's). We can be assured, if we receive anything from the Son, whatever we receive will reflect the nature of God the Father.

Jesus had power as God During His Earthly Ministry and He used that Power

Do you believe Jesus is God? Yes, or no?

That is a given. I was addressing the meaning of kenosis. While Christ was totally subject to the Father's will, He did have His divine powers as you mentioned. There is no conflict there, since that too was the Father's will.

So are you saying that the Word did not empty Himself, and become a mere mortal?

Exactly. How could a mere mortal die for your sins?

Another question: How can God die?

He didn't, while the body was lying in the Tomb, we read the WORD, was preaching to the Lost Souls in Hell:

18 For Christ also once suffered for sins, a just man for unjust men, that he might bring us to God, having been indeed put to death in flesh, but made alive in spirit,

19 in which also he went and preached to the spirits in prison

Another question: How can God die?

He didn't, while the body was lying in the Tomb, we read the WORD, was preaching to the Lost Souls in Hell

Why? Because nothing is impossible with God.

Just checking: Do you really want to claim that Jesus did not die on the cross?

That should be "Hades" not Hell. In any event that was His soul and spirit in Hades (also called Sheol). But Jesus did in fact die physically and His body was entombed for three days and three night. Thus we have this verse which covers both aspects: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in [Hades], neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption [in the tomb]. Acts 2:27

He didn't.

Me: How can God die?


No worries.
I was just wondering what you meant.

There's something other-worldly going on, yes?

the word is Greek, from Philippians 2, quoted below in kjv, with some context --


the phrase here "made Himself of no reputation" is literally:

the verb "to empty" is in Greek, κενόω, transliterated, kenoo -- the noun form for the state of emptying, kenosis.


it is an important point of contention in Christian theology, but actually a fairly modern debate, dating to the mid 1900's ((per this link: A Brief History Of The Kenosis Theory))

the question that is under contention is what does it mean that Christ "made Himself of no reputation" ?
that He "emptied Himself" -- emptied Himself of what?

basically, it boils down to did Christ cease to be God when He took on the form of man?
i.e. did He empty Himself of deity - or at least, some of the attributes of deity?

is He always God, or is He, while on earth, a mere man without any divine qualities?


it's a topic that in recent weeks i've discerned to be very important to several other topics -- some of your views on this topic have been very evident based on how you treat other topics. it is a fairly fundamental thing to how we understand Who Christ is and how to comprehend what He said as recorded in the gospels.
But i don't remember there being any actual formal topic specifically about this in the BDF... anyway there ain't any recent one, ha!

so here it is.
let's dive in!

for my part, i think there are some clues in the text itself that tell us ((and other things in other passages that confirm it)) -- but i am not trying to proselytize here but engender discussion. i think it's something we all ought to take a close, careful, studied look into.
so i'd like to hear from you all before i just just give my own views as tho i'm a teacher and you're just supposed to nod your head & agree. we all know how that works lol
most of you who know me fairly well can already guess what i think, anyway



as always,
thanks for reading my drivel

So, we know there are limits on what is and what is not possible with God. We're certainly not claiming "God can do whatever He wants", right? That would give way for Him to lie