The Commandments of God (according to scripture)

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Dec 13, 2023
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#81
The all things isn't simply the words of Jesus recorded in the Gospels. It would also include everything written in the epistles. You don't seem able to wrap your head around this concept. Things necessarily changed with the new covenant. You are stuck under the old covenant.
I can wrap my head around it, I just can't wrap my head around Paul disobeying Christ. Paul acted on behalf of what Jesus commanded, He was a disciple of Jesus, they are not equals, no man is equal to God. Paul was a servant of God, not the other way around.

This is a weird thing to argue unless one is trying to dismiss the teachings of Jesus in lieu of out of context teachings of Paul that came with a warning for this exact reason 2 Peter 3:16 but suit yourself. God gives us free will.
 

Magenta

Senior Member
Jul 3, 2015
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#82
The all things isn't simply the words of Jesus recorded in the Gospels. It would also include
everything written in the epistles. You don't seem able to wrap your head around this concept.
Things necessarily changed with the new covenant. You are stuck under the old covenant.
Now if perfection could have been attained through the Levitical priesthood (for on
this basis the people received the law), why was there still need for another priest to
appear—one in the order of Melchizedek and not in the order of Aaron? For when
the priesthood is changed, the law must be changed as well. Hebrews 7:11-12



From 2 Corinthians 5:17 and Romans 6:13
:)
 

ThyKingdomComeSoon

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Apr 1, 2023
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#83
Paul wrote after Jesus' words were recorded. Where, pray tell, does Jesus correct Paul's doctrine?
And you are accusing me of what you have demonstrably done by giving greater weight to Jesus' words. I don't believe there is any inconsistency in scripture. But that doesn't mean there aren't changes made as one covenant draws to a close and another introduced. In fact, one should expect such changes.
that one is easy;

Act 9:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
Act 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Act 9:6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
 

Magenta

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Jul 3, 2015
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#84
that one is easy;

Act 9:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
Act 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus
whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Act 9:6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the
Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
Paul held no Christian doctrine at that time.
 

ThyKingdomComeSoon

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Apr 1, 2023
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#85
Your admission, unfortunately, is the source of some poor doctrine.
I am just saying you have to read more of what Jesus said, I know a lot of people who rely almost exclusively on Paul's words and forget about Christ, It us just what I am saying, you must read and see for yourself, If I wrote it here you would not understand. I prefer you search for yourself it is the best way to know.
 

ThyKingdomComeSoon

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Apr 1, 2023
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#86
Paul held no Christian doctrine at that time.
No? he knew very well what the Christians believed, he was killing Christians himself, they were all afraid of him. I can quote scripture if you need, but I know I do not need to, you know it better than I. It is why Jesus had to intervene.
 

Magenta

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#87
no? he knew knew very well what the Christians believed, he was killing Christians himself, they were all afraid of him. I can quote scripture if you need but I know I have need to you know it better than I. It is why Jesus had to intervene.
He knew some of what Christians believed but he did not believe as they did which is why he was
seeing to murdering them. He had no Christian doctrine to correct. He was a Pharisee of Pharisees.
 
Dec 13, 2023
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#89
that one is easy;

Act 9:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
Act 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Act 9:6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
Thanks, I didn't see this question, appreciate you answering.

God bless!
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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#90
I can wrap my head around it, I just can't wrap my head around Paul disobeying Christ. Paul acted on behalf of what Jesus commanded, He was a disciple of Jesus, they are not equals, no man is equal to God. Paul was a servant of God, not the other way around.

This is a weird thing to argue unless one is trying to dismiss the teachings of Jesus in lieu of out of context teachings of Paul that came with a warning for this exact reason 2 Peter 3:16 but suit yourself. God gives us free will.
I never claimed Paul disobeyed Jesus. You thinking that's what I am saying is the evidence that you don't understand my argument.
Paul didn't ever tell anyone not to obey commandments. He showed the superior manner in which to do so now that the promise of the Father had been given.
I think in post #418, Aaron56 does an incredible job of explaining all this. Please read the post. A new standard of obedience has been established. It is only possible walking in the Spirit. We are no longer to merely do the best we can. We are required to keep the commandments as Jesus did.

Please, please, please read the post. If you can understand this change, you will understand why the epistles were largely written. The instruction Jesus gave to those under the old covenant is insufficient for those understand the new covenant
 
Dec 13, 2023
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#91
Paul held no Christian doctrine at that time.
No, that's not what is being stated. It just goes to show that even those walking with Jesus were still wrong at times, as they are not infallible like Jesus is.
 
Dec 13, 2023
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#92
I never claimed Paul disobeyed Jesus. You thinking that's what I am saying is the evidence that you don't understand my argument.
Paul didn't ever tell anyone not to obey commandments. He showed the superior manner in which to do so now that the promise of the Father had been given.
I think in post #418, Aaron56 does an incredible job of explaining all this. Please read the post. A new standard of obedience has been established. It is only possible walking in the Spirit. We are no longer to merely do the best we can. We are required to keep the commandments as Jesus did.

Please, please, please read the post. If you can understand this change, you will understand why the epistles were largely written. The instruction Jesus gave to those under the old covenant is insufficient for those understand the new covenant
So Jesus is wrong and you and the poster you indicated are right?

No thanks. My faith is in Jesus Christ and His teachings and His example. I already showed you the apostles kept the Sabbath and commandments decades after the cross, the change in the covenant was the law going from tables of stone to tables of the heart. Heb 8:10 Jer 31:33 Same law, just a different application. Those in Christ are keeping the law of God and if we are hostile to God's law, it really is not a good sign. Romans 8:7-8
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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#93
that one is easy;

Act 9:4 And he fell to the earth, and heard a voice saying unto him, Saul, Saul, why persecutest thou me?
Act 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
Act 9:6 And he trembling and astonished said, Lord, what wilt thou have me to do? And the Lord said unto him, Arise, and go into the city, and it shall be told thee what thou must do.
See post # please for the point I was making. The reference to post#418 is in another thread, but speaks most excellently to the point I am arguing.
 

Kroogz

Active member
Dec 5, 2023
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#94
Just wondering how You would determine this question based upon Your answer. When Paul wrote, I wished everyone spoke in tongues as much as I do, is that Paul or the Holy Spirit speaking?
That was both Paul and the Holy Spirit speaking. That was in Paul's heart. And it was inspired by the Holy Spirit.

If we understand what the purpose of tongues was truly for.....it becomes obvious.

Isaiah 28:11-12~~Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues God will speak to this people,(Israel/Jews) to whom he said, “This is the resting place, let the weary rest”; and, “This is the place of repose”— but they would not listen.

1 Cor 14~~21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people(Israel/Jews); and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

Rom 9:3~~For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,

Matt 23:37~~“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!
 
Dec 14, 2023
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#95
That was both Paul and the Holy Spirit speaking. That was in Paul's heart. And it was inspired by the Holy Spirit.

If we understand what the purpose of tongues was truly for.....it becomes obvious.

Isaiah 28:11-12~~Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues God will speak to this people,(Israel/Jews) to whom he said, “This is the resting place, let the weary rest”; and, “This is the place of repose”— but they would not listen.

1 Cor 14~~21 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people(Israel/Jews); and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

Rom 9:3~~For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,

Matt 23:37~~“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to it! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you were not willing!
Those Verses do not put me into the idea of speaking in Tongues but more like the Greek Language that took over for the Hebrew Language in literature. Old Testament in Hebrew, New Testament in Greek.

For me, Paul said speaking in tongues is to edify the believers. Israel would not be the believer that Paul is talking to here. I believe Paul is talking to those who are now in Christ. He also writes that the Holy Spirit searches us and then speaks mysteries to God. Mysteries that only God understands. So it's for the sole benefit of the one who is following Christ. This is just my understanding of it.
 

Cameron143

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#96
So Jesus is wrong and you and the poster you indicated are right?

No thanks. My faith is in Jesus Christ and His teachings and His example. I already showed you the apostles kept the Sabbath and commandments decades after the cross, the change in the covenant was the law going from tables of stone to tables of the heart. Heb 8:10 Jer 31:33 Same law, just a different application. Those in Christ are keeping the law of God and if we are hostile to God's law, it really is not a good sign. Romans 8:7-8
Please try to read my posts completely. Jesus is never wrong. I'm claiming your understanding is wrong. Not Jesus. Not Paul.

Now...as to what I believe you misunderstand:
1. Jesus was instructing Jews under the old covenant. His instruction, therefore, would be that which agreed with the old covenant.
2. Jesus did teach concerning the approaching covenant. One example is found in the teaching about how to love. Originally, we are taught to love our neighbors as we love ourselves. This is a standard any person can keep, saved or not. To keep this commandment, an individual simply by his own endeavor can do this.
Later, Jesus gives a new commandment: love one another as I have loved you. The standard has been changed. Now no one can keep the commandments by and through their own effort. The only way this commandment can be kept is with the help of the Spirit. Our best no longer meets the standard. And this is why the epistles are written...to teach us how to walk in newness of life we have received.
3. Thus, nothing Paul writes contradicts anything Jesus said, but it does expand upon it.
 
Dec 13, 2023
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#97
Please try to read my posts completely. Jesus is never wrong. I'm claiming your understanding is wrong. Not Jesus. Not Paul.

Now...as to what I believe you misunderstand:
1. Jesus was instructing Jews under the old covenant. His instruction, therefore, would be that which agreed with the old covenant.
2. Jesus did teach concerning the approaching covenant. One example is found in the teaching about how to love. Originally, we are taught to love our neighbors as we love ourselves. This is a standard any person can keep, saved or not. To keep this commandment, an individual simply by his own endeavor can do this.
Later, Jesus gives a new commandment: love one another as I have loved you. The standard has been changed. Now no one can keep the commandments by and through their own effort. The only way this commandment can be kept is with the help of the Spirit. Our best no longer meets the standard. And this is why the epistles are written...to teach us how to walk in newness of life we have received.
3. Thus, nothing Paul writes contradicts anything Jesus said, but it does expand upon it.

The commandments to love is not a new commandment- Jesus is quoting the OT. Deut 6:5 Lev 19:18 Love is found right in the Ten Commandments Exo 20:6 and it is what Jesus repeated. John 14:15 Love to God is keeping His commandments 1 John 5:3 The summary does not delete the details. I think it will be really hard to make the case that we can love God but worship other gods, or vain His holy name , break His holy Sabbath day or bow to idols. It's not something Jesus or the apostles did. Or we can love neighbor by not honoring our mother and father, murdering them, committing adultery, coveting and lying etc. I find it so strange people argue against these simple commandments- God said were not grievous but meant to bless.

Jesus taught us how to live and is our example to follow 1 John 2:6 , He did not come to this earth to only teach the Jews. I don't know how people will be able to justify believing in Jesus but not believing in His teachings or His example. I guess we will see, but by the time Jesus Christ comes our fates will already be sealed Rev 22:11. I trust the teachings of Jesus, He says when we obey our own rules over the commandments of God quoting directly from the Ten, our hearts are far from Him Mat 15:3-9 and if one wants to believe all of Jesus teachings of Jesus doesn't apply to us, how much of the scripture is deleted. All the OT. All of the teachings of Jesus. The apostles taught what Jesus commanded. What's left? Not much.
 

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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#98
The commandments to love is not a new commandment- Jesus is quoting the OT. Deut 6:5 Lev 19:18 Love is found right in the Ten Commandments Exo 20:6 and it is what Jesus repeated. John 14:15 Love to God is keeping His commandments 1 John 5:3 The summary does not delete the details. I think it will be really hard to make the case that we can love God but worship other gods, or vain His holy name , break His holy Sabbath day or bow to idols. It's not something Jesus or the apostles did. Or we can love neighbor by not honoring our mother and father, murdering them, committing adultery, coveting and lying etc. I find it so strange people argue against these simple commandments- God said were not grievous but meant to bless.

Jesus taught us how to live and is our example to follow 1 John 2:6 , He did not come to this earth to only teach the Jews. I don't know how people will be able to justify believing in Jesus but not believing in His teachings or His example. I guess we will see, but by the time Jesus Christ comes our fates will already be sealed Rev 22:11
The law was changed...a new commandment I give unto you...And a new standard was established as well. This is what you misunderstand.
I credit Aaron56 because his sharing of this greatly enhanced my previous understanding.
 
Dec 13, 2023
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#99
The law was changed...a new commandment I give unto you...And a new standard was established as well. This is what you misunderstand.
I credit Aaron56 because his sharing of this greatly enhanced my previous understanding.
Scripture doesn't delete scripture and new commandments do not delete previous commandments. You can believe the teachings of man; my faith is in Jesus as He will only lead us on the narrow path. In His own Words He says when we keep our traditions/rules over the commandments of God quoting from the Ten, one worships in vain and it is the blind leading the blind, both teacher and student end up in a ditch, which means off the narrow path Matthew 15:3-14. But if we don't believe His teachings or feel they don't apply I guess we can't head His warning hence why He tells there will be many who will say Lord Lord (believers) in that great day...but He won't know them as they do not do His Fathers will, or keep His laws Matthew 7:21-23 and the parallel verse to these points directly to the Ten Commandments Rev 22:14-15 Perhaps one day you may reconsider, but our time on this earth is short.

Appreciate the chat, no point in continuing but wish you well in seeking Truth to His Word.

God bless.
 

Kroogz

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Dec 5, 2023
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What if there was a record of those two commandments being usurped by greater ones? Would you then believe?

Matthew, chapter 22:34-36, “Hearing that Jesus had silenced the Sadducees, the Pharisees got together. One of them, an expert in the law, tested him with this question: ‘Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?’”

Now, you’ll note that. Indeed, a lawyer, under the law could only ask Him a question about the law. He couldn’t ask Him about the new commandment; he was unaware of the new commandment. So the context of this question and the answer, both have to do with the law. What is the greatest commandment?

Matthew 22:37-40Jesus replied: ‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.’” (Inserted-Matthew 22:37-40)

His answer, summarized the teachings of the Law and the Prophets and in this, His answer is solidly to be found in the Law. This is the very thing that is to be replaced. But today most people think if you keep the 10 commandments and if you love your neighbor as yourself then you have done everything that God could have required. Now if you look at these two commandments you will immediately observe that they are foundationally different. Why? Because the standard is different.

In the first case the “new” commandment has this as the standard: “…as I have loved you, so you should love one another.” The “old” commandment has this: “With all of your capacity to love so you should love God and so you should love one another.” Well you will notice that the standard of the “old” commandment is, of course, appropriate for the Law because the Law can only require you to do as much as it is possible for you to do. Objectively and theoretically it is possible to keep the Law because it does not require any more than all that you are capable of doing. It doesn’t say, “All that you feel like doing,” nor does it say, “All that you want to do.” It says, “All that you are capable of doing.” So when the Law says, “Love the Lord your God with all of your heart...” all of your heart means all of the capacity that lies within you to do. All, in fact, means all. It doesn’t say, “All that you want to do, all that you feel like doing, all that on certain occasions you may be inclined to do.” No, it requires all. So in that sense, the Law and the standard of the Law is not haphazard but it does point out that it is all that is humanly possible.

Furthermore, the Law was designed to keep the Jews alive. God could not ask a man to give up his own life under the Law. There was no promise of a new life in the Law. To ask a man to give up his life would be to make the Law unrighteous. A man cannot give up his own life and simultaneously keep his life.

The standard is appropriate for the Law because if the Law asks of anyone more than all then by the existence of the Law you’ve been made lawless. In other words: if it is all plus 10% then the Law makes you lawless because it has exceeded your capacity to respond. But the Law begins and ends with what you can do. And it has a lesser standard for loving your neighbor. Its objective standard regarding loving God is all that you are capable of doing. Its lesser standard in regards to loving your neighbor is, “…as you love yourself.” The presumption is that you love yourself pretty thoroughly. Now what if you didn’t love yourself? The Law simply requires you to love your neighbor in the same fashion, to the same extent.

What is the standard of the new and how is that different? The standard of the new is: “…as I have loved you.” Who is the “I” that is the measurement of this standard? The “I”, of course, is Christ, the one speaking. He is also the Living God. So the standard is: as Jesus has loved us so we are to love one another. Now what if you don’t love yourself? Well that is an irrelevant standard. He didn’t say, “as you love your neighbor, so you should love one another…” or “as I have occasionally loved you so you must love each other.” “As I have loved you” means “I, as God, have loved you perfectly; therefore I require you to love as God loves.” This is a fascinating standard because it’s the same standard for God as it is for man. The standard of love is the same for God as it is for man. That standard of the new commandment makes God and man equal on the matter of love. That’s an incredible observation. On the matter of love, God and man are equal.

Now don’t take my observation for that. Look at this: this is from Matthew5:48, Jesus is speaking. Now this verse of Scripture is very troubling. Matthew 5:48 says, “Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” What we’ve done is we’ve read that verse out of its context and we have inferred meanings to it that it does not mean. For example we’ve inferred that it means “be perfect in power” and so people come up with thoughts like, “if you’re not healed it’s your fault; you don’t have enough faith, you do not exercise enough power.” So if things go badly it’s your fault. God has given you all power, God has given you all faith, and so on, and if you do these things less than perfectly then it is your fault. Well that’s garbage because God would not require us to be perfect in power, whatever power we have is His power given to us, and no one is made "all powerful". Therefore we could only operate in whatever measures of power He has given us. This Scripture is not about being perfect in power; it’s about being perfect in love.

Note the context: jump back to verse 43 “‘You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you: Love your enemies…” (so the context is love) “..and pray for those who persecute you…” Now why should you do that and how is this different? You must do that so that you can be sons of your Father in heaven, "..that you may be sons of your Father in heaven.” It means that just as natural children resemble their natural parents and the nature of natural children is like the nature of their natural parents, so the nature of the children of God is like the God Who is perfect in love. So it’s not surprising to us that the same standard would apply to God as would apply to us… in the matter of love. So that you will be as sons of your Father in heaven.

And then He gives us some examples of how he loves His enemies and does good for those who persecute Him. “He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous…”. Then He contrasts and He says, “If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even the pagans do that?” In short, to be like your Father in heaven it means that you do not simply love your enemies as you love yourselves or you love your neighbor as yourself; it is that you would love your enemy by preferring them over your own life and in that sense, and within that context it says, “Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

The “old” commandment, under the Law, basically required you to love the extent of your capacity to love… love God as much as you are able and to love your neighbor as you are inclined to love yourself. That’s the “old” commandment. The “new” commandment says, “…as I have loved you.” And it establishes Christ as the standard for love. Christ being the Living God, the standard is the same for God as the standard is for man. Now the reason why the standard is the same is because, according to 2 Peter 1:4, the intent of God is that we be made to be partakers of the divine nature…"

“Through these he has given us his very great and precious promises, so that through them you may participate in the divine nature and escape the corruption in the world caused by evil desires.” and "The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of His nature..."

The divine nature, the nature of God, is to love and to love perfectly; to love by preferring the life of another over your own life, to give up your life to God so that God would live through you. Now what’s left unanswered for us is: why? And furthermore, how does this prepare us to overcome the evil one?

Revelation 12:11 “They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death.”) In this respect we are meant to be exactly as God—perfect in love—the same standard that applies to God applies to us and this is the measure that displays the reality that we are partakers of the divine nature.

By this it is abundantly clear that the “new” commandment is not simply the “old” commandment rehashed. It has the elements of a totally different standard, the same standard for God and man.
This is excellent. Thank you.