The Atonement: What did it REALLY Accomplish?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
R

reneweddaybyday

Senior Member
#2,401
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
1,674
113
#2,401
brightfame52 said:
Matt 25:41

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels
Click to expand...
:rolleyes: ... read the rest of what Jesus said, brightfame52:

Matthew 25:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Jesus spoke the words in Matthew chapters 24 and 25 in answer to questions His disciples had asked (Matt 24:3).

Are you even capable of reading from Matt 24:1 through Matt 25:46 in order to comprehend what it is that Jesus taught His disciples in answer to their questions?

Based on your complete and utter disinterest in the context laid out by the Author of Scripture, I do not believe you are ... just sayin'




brightfame52 said:
all them He died for
Click to expand...

brightfame52 said:
for all whom Christ died
Click to expand...

brightfame52 said:
anyone He died for
Click to expand...

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

From Thayer's Greek Lexicon:

5. the inhabitants of the world ... particularly the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race ... John 1:10, 29 ... John 3:16f ... Corinthians 5:19 ... 1 John 2:2​
.
 
Mem

Mem

Senior Member
#2,402
Sep 23, 2014
7,230
2,207
113
#2,402
If Jesus died for the sins of the whole world (1John2:2) and whoever does not believe will be condemned (Mark 16:16) and is condemned already because he does not believe in the name of God's one and only Son, and whoever believes is not condemned (John3:18) then it is not sin, but faith that is counted...(Romans 4:5).

Sin garners wages, which are due, but the gift is given, which must be received. Jesus received our wages and gifted us His due.
"So He could not perform any miracles there, except...on a few....And He was amazed at their unbelief (Mark 6:5). Of course, Jesus could have healed them all, but why would He be amazed at their unbelief if indeed they could not believe except that it must first be given it them to believe?!
 
B

brightfame52

Well-known member
#2,403
Nov 21, 2020
6,460
589
113
#2,403
Mem said:
If Jesus died for the sins of the whole world (1John2:2) and whoever does not believe will be condemned (Mark 16:16) and is condemned already because he does not believe in the name of God's one and only Son, and whoever believes is not condemned (John3:18) then it is not sin, but faith that is counted...(Romans 4:5).

Sin garners wages, which are due, but the gift is given, which must be received. Jesus received our wages and gifted us His due.
"So He could not perform any miracles there, except...on a few....And He was amazed at their unbelief (Mark 6:5). Of course, Jesus could have healed them all, but why would He be amazed at their unbelief if indeed they could not believe except that it must first be given it them to believe?!
Click to expand...
Those for whom Christ died cant be condemned for unbelief, He died for that sin, He took it away, so only unbelievers whom Christ didnt die for are condemned in unbelief and the rest of their sins.
 
Mem

Mem

Senior Member
#2,404
Sep 23, 2014
7,230
2,207
113
#2,404
brightfame52 said:
Those for whom Christ died cant be condemned for unbelief, He died for that sin, He took it away, so only unbelievers whom Christ didnt die for are condemned in unbelief and the rest of their sins.
Click to expand...
Christ died by the law and doing so, obliterated it and established the law of Christ. And, if the law provided any degree of hope at all by receiving it, how hopeless are you if you reject the law of Christ?
 
B

brightfame52

Well-known member
#2,405
Nov 21, 2020
6,460
589
113
#2,405
Mem said:
Christ died by the law and doing so, obliterated it and established the law of Christ. And, if the law provided any degree of hope at all by receiving it, how hopeless are you if you reject the law of Christ?
Click to expand...
Christ didnt die for them who are condemned and cursed, that means He didnt do away the law for them. Those for whom Christ died, all of them are not condemned, and are redeemed from the curse of the law, and from unbelief.
 
R

rogerg

Well-known member
#2,406
Jul 13, 2021
3,870
645
113
#2,406
Mem said:
but the gift is given, which must be received.
Click to expand...
If the gift must first be "received" by the those for whom it was intended by God in order to have it, but if they don't do so then they won't obtain it, they, in effect, must bring the gift to themselves, making it not a gift but a work. A gift to be a gift, is only one if/when it is actually fully in the possession of him for whom it was intended with no preconditions nor actions whatsoever imposed upon their receiving of it. Until and unless that occurs, it is not a gift. Yet, God does refer to salvation as a gift, and a free gift at that. This means that since God Himself tells us it is gift, that God alone must directly give it in its fullness and completeness, to those whom it was intended, with no rejection nor intervention possible on their part; that is, it can only be "received" directly from/by God alone- and that God does not permit His will to be circumvented nor invalidated by man's.

[Rom 5:15-16 KJV]
15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification.

[Psa 135:6 KJV]
6 Whatsoever the LORD pleased, [that] did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places.

[Job 23:13 KJV]
13 But he [is] in one [mind], and who can turn him? and [what] his soul desireth, even [that] he doeth.
 
R

reneweddaybyday

Senior Member
#2,407
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
1,674
113
#2,407
brightfame52 said:
Those for whom Christ died
Click to expand...

brightfame52 said:
Those for whom Christ died
Click to expand...

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.

From Thayer's Greek Lexicon:

5. the inhabitants of the world ... particularly the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race ... John 1:10, 29 ... John 3:16f ... Corinthians 5:19 ... 1 John 2:2.​
.
 
Mem

Mem

Senior Member
#2,408
Sep 23, 2014
7,230
2,207
113
#2,408
rogerg said:
If the gift must first be "received" by the those for whom it was intended by God in order to have it, but if they don't do so then they won't obtain it, they, in effect, must bring the gift to themselves, making it not a gift but a work. A gift to be a gift, is only one if/when it is actually fully in the possession of him for whom it was intended with no preconditions nor actions whatsoever imposed upon their receiving of it. Until and unless that occurs, it is not a gift. Yet, God does refer to salvation as a gift, and a free gift at that. This means that since God Himself tells us it is gift, that God alone must directly give it in its fullness and completeness, to those whom it was intended, with no rejection nor intervention possible on their part; that is, it can only be "received" directly from/by God alone- and that God does not permit His will to be circumvented nor invalidated by man's.

[Rom 5:15-16 KJV]
15 But not as the offence, so also [is] the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, [which is] by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.
16 And not as [it was] by one that sinned, [so is] the gift: for the judgment [was] by one to condemnation, but the free gift [is] of many offences unto justification.

[Psa 135:6 KJV]
6 Whatsoever the LORD pleased, [that] did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places.

[Job 23:13 KJV]
13 But he [is] in one [mind], and who can turn him? and [what] his soul desireth, even [that] he doeth.
Click to expand...
You've went a long way in reasoning the gift an ungift. Yet, your "if" is only a hypothesis that must be proven to be determined as a truth. And if a gift must be received in order for the intended to benefit from it, or if the recipient of the gift does have the allowance to reject it, then it can be of no effect (Galatians 5:4).

Let's say you go up to a counter and there is a bowl of chewed gum on it with a sign that says, "Free, take one. You're welcome!" would you take one? You might, but some do regard Christ in such a common manner as to decline the gift. That is, they do not believe that His spent life is of any value that it should benefit them.
 
R

reneweddaybyday

Senior Member
#2,409
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
1,674
113
#2,409
rogerg said:
If the gift must first be "received" by the those for whom it was intended by God in order to have it, but if they don't do so then they won't obtain it, they, in effect, must bring the gift to themselves, making it not a gift but a work.
Click to expand...
:rolleyes: ... if someone gives you a gift and you refuse to receive it, that does not mean the gift was not given ... it means you refused to receive the gift.

if someone gives you a gift and you receive it, that does not mean receiving the gift is "work" on your part.




rogerg said:
it can only be "received" directly from/by God alone
Click to expand...
:rolleyes: ... under your scenario, God gives the gift and then God receives the gift. You have not been given anything.
.
 
B

brightfame52

Well-known member
#2,410
Nov 21, 2020
6,460
589
113
#2,410
Mem said:
You've went a long way in reasoning the gift an ungift. Yet, your "if" is only a hypothesis that must be proven to be determined as a truth. And if a gift must be received in order for the intended to benefit from it, or if the recipient of the gift does have the allowance to reject it, then it can be of no effect (Galatians 5:4).

Let's say you go up to a counter and there is a bowl of chewed gum on it with a sign that says, "Free, take one. You're welcome!" would you take one? You might, but some do regard Christ in such a common manner as to decline the gift. That is, they do not believe that His spent life is of any value that it should benefit them.
Click to expand...
You don't understand the nature of spiritual gifts. They are sovereignly given
 
B

brightfame52

Well-known member
#2,414
Nov 21, 2020
6,460
589
113
#2,414
Christ is Victorious over Death !

Christ is Victorious over Death ! However do we really believe this fact ? You see in Him being Victorious over Death, He has for them He died for, and rose again for their Justification Rom 4:25, for them because He's Victorious, has abolished death 2 Tim 1:10

10 But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

Now Christ Jesus has come to show us the kindness of God. Christ our Savior defeated death[for us] and brought us the good news. It shines like a light and offers life that never ends.

He brings immortality to light, that being "immunity from eternal death"

Now He is hardly Victorious over Death if those He died for as Surety Head remain in Spiritual death and go into the second death, For His Resurrection from/out from the dead was not for Himself, as His going into death was not for Himself, but as the Head and Surety of His People, the Sheep, His Body the Church, and so consequently if the Head is Victorious out from death, so must be His People, His Body ! Because He was raised for their Justification Rom 4:25, which is Justification of Life Rom 5:18b.

Its a great contradiction to say Christ is Victorious over death and not those He died for ! So do we really believe Christ is victorious over death if one He dies for is not ? NO we don't !
 
R

rogerg

Well-known member
#2,415
Jul 13, 2021
3,870
645
113
#2,415
Mem said:
You've went a long way in reasoning the gift an ungift. Yet, your "if" is only a hypothesis that must be proven to be determined as a truth. And if a gift must be received in order for the intended to benefit from it, or if the recipient of the gift does have the allowance to reject it, then it can be of no effect (Galatians 5:4).

Let's say you go up to a counter and there is a bowl of chewed gum on it with a sign that says, "Free, take one. You're welcome!" would you take one? You might, but some do regard Christ in such a common manner as to decline the gift. That is, they do not believe that His spent life is of any value that it should benefit them.
Click to expand...
I didn't reason "the gift an ungift"; I reasoned the criteria that makes the gift a gift, which is only because those chosen were sanctified by Christ, through which, are God’s laws placed into the recipient's heart and mind by God alone thereby making it, in total and in all ways, His gift. Until and unless that occurs, it isn’t one. And because God does not do so for everyone, it certainly couldn't be that His gift is intended for everyone as not all can or will obtain it; that is, if someone should have to do something to obtain it, then it simply isn’t a gift. So, with it being a gift placed within them by God, the recipient has neither the ability to receive nor reject it - but that the gift became so is by God's will and actions in the giving of it to them which makes it a gift, but not because of their volition, they receive it. That is why He is the Saviour and man is not. This is what makes the gift a completely "free" one, as the verses I posted previously demonstrate. Your analogy of the gum therefore is incorrect as salvation isn’t manifested nor kept in a “bowl” for anyone to just walk by and grab up at their choosing.

In addition to the verses that I previously posted, it is also demonstrated by the following verses. Do you see that it is God alone who places His laws of salvation into the minds and hearts of His chosen after/by having sanctified them first through Christ? Therefore, because not all can nor will become saved, then not all were sanctified by Christ, and if not sanctified by Christ, then not all recipients of the gift.


[Heb 10:10 KJV]
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all].

[Heb 10:14-18 KJV]
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15 [Whereof] the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these [is, there is] no more offering for sin.
 
Mem

Mem

Senior Member
#2,416
Sep 23, 2014
7,230
2,207
113
#2,416
rogerg said:
I didn't reason "the gift an ungift"; I reasoned the criteria that makes the gift a gift, which is only because those chosen were sanctified by Christ, through which, are God’s laws placed into the recipient's heart and mind by God alone thereby making it, in total and in all ways, His gift. Until and unless that occurs, it isn’t one. And because God does not do so for everyone, it certainly couldn't be that His gift is intended for everyone as not all can or will obtain it; that is, if someone should have to do something to obtain it, then it simply isn’t a gift. So, with it being a gift placed within them by God, the recipient has neither the ability to receive nor reject it - but that the gift became so is by God's will and actions in the giving of it to them which makes it a gift, but not because of their volition, they receive it. That is why He is the Saviour and man is not. This is what makes the gift a completely "free" one, as the verses I posted previously demonstrate. Your analogy of the gum therefore is incorrect as salvation isn’t manifested nor kept in a “bowl” for anyone to just walk by and grab up at their choosing.

In addition to the verses that I previously posted, it is also demonstrated by the following verses. Do you see that it is God alone who places His laws of salvation into the minds and hearts of His chosen after/by having sanctified them first through Christ? Therefore, because not all can nor will become saved, then not all were sanctified by Christ, and if not sanctified by Christ, then not all recipients of the gift.


[Heb 10:10 KJV]
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all].

[Heb 10:14-18 KJV]
14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
15 [Whereof] the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
16 This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
18 Now where remission of these [is, there is] no more offering for sin.
Click to expand...
Np, I'm sure you meant well.
 
B

brightfame52

Well-known member
#2,417
Nov 21, 2020
6,460
589
113
#2,417
@rogerg

I didn't reason "the gift an ungift"; I reasoned the criteria that makes the gift a gift, which is only because those chosen were sanctified by Christ, through which, are God’s laws placed into the recipient's heart and mind by God alone thereby making it, in total and in all ways, His gift.
Click to expand...
Exactly Roger, they are New Covenant Gifts imparted to the Heirs Heb 8:10

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

One of those laws is Faith Rom 3:27

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

The word for put in Heb 8:10 is the greek word didōmi and means:

  1. to give
  2. to give something to someone
    1. of one's own accord to give one something, to his advantage
      1. to bestow a gift
So God sovereignly gives, bestows the Gift to the spiritual advantage of the recipient. This God offering Spiritual gifts so that a person can accept it or reject it is a delusion.
 
R

rogerg

Well-known member
#2,418
Jul 13, 2021
3,870
645
113
#2,418
brightfame52 said:
So God sovereignly gives, bestows the Gift to the spiritual advantage of the recipient. This God offering Spiritual gifts so that a person can accept it or reject it is a delusion.
Click to expand...
Yes. And IMHO, brightfame52, I think the mistake many make is to believe the traits that result from being saved are often misunderstood as being necessary in order to become saved.
 
R

reneweddaybyday

Senior Member
#2,419
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
1,674
113
#2,419
rogerg said:
I reasoned the criteria that makes the gift a gift, which is only because those chosen were sanctified by Christ, through which, are God’s laws placed into the recipient's heart and mind by God alone thereby making it, in total and in all ways, His gift. Until and unless that occurs, it isn’t one.
Click to expand...
Your "criteria" is a straw man because no one disputes that God's gift is wholly God's gift.

Additionally, your argument is faulty in that you claim God's gift is not God's gift unless your stated "criteria" is met.

God's gift is God's gift. Period.

If someone rejects God's gift, that does not change God's gift in any way, shape, or form from being anything but God's gift.

If someone accepts God's gift, that does not change God's gift in any way, shape, or form from being anything but God's gift.




rogerg said:
Therefore, because not all can nor will become saved, then not all were sanctified by Christ, and if not sanctified by Christ, then not all recipients of the gift.
Click to expand...
All can receive ... but not all will receive.

John 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

The word "received" is translated from the Greek word paralambano:

Metaphorically, equivalent to "to accept or acknowledge one to be such as he professes to be; not to reject, not to withhold obedience": τινα, John 1:11.​




rogerg said:
[Heb 10:10 KJV]
10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once [for all].
Click to expand...
The words "for all" do not appear in the text. The offering of the Lord Jesus Christ once was sufficient for all the sins of all mankind.

Hebrews 10:10 contrasts the offerings under the old covenant which could never take away sins and had to be made over and over with the one offering of the Lord Jesus Christ under the new covenant. The Lord Jesus Christ does not get back up on the cross over and over and over.

The Lord Jesus Christ died once:

Romans 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

the death of the Lord Jesus Christ once is sufficient to cover all the sins of all descendants of Adam.

According to Hebrews 10:1, the descendants of Adam who are the comers are sanctified (Heb 10:10).

According to Hebrews 10:2, the descendants of Adam who are the worshippers are sanctified (Heb 10:10).

The descendants of Adam who do not come and who do not worship are not sanctified because there is no other offering that can take away sin ... there is only One Offering for sin ... the Lord Jesus Christ.
.
 
R

reneweddaybyday

Senior Member
#2,420
Mar 23, 2016
7,021
1,674
113
#2,420
brightfame52 said:
Heb 8:10

10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:

One of those laws is Faith Rom 3:27

27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Click to expand...
do not conflate what is written in Romans 3:27 with what is written in Hebrews 8:10 ... that is improper interpretation of Scripture.

Here's what your good friend, John Gill, says about "the law of faith":

the word "law" here answers to the Hebrew word which signifies any "doctrine" or "instruction"​

Other commentaries state that the "law of faith" should more aptly be rendered as the "principle of faith" as shown in the Amplified version:

Then what becomes of [our] boasting? It is excluded [entirely ruled out, banished]. On what principle? On [the principle of good] works? No, but on the principle of faith.​




brightfame52 said:
This God offering Spiritual gifts so that a person can accept it or reject it is a delusion.
Click to expand...
not only can a person reject ... Scripture makes clear that born again believers can improperly use what God has given.

In the church at Corinth, the believers were improperly utilizing the manifestation of the Spirit and Paul wrote 1 Corinthians 12, 13, and 14 to correct the misuse.

Ephesians 4:30 tells us grieve not the holy Spirit of God ...

1 Thessalonians 5:19 warns us quench not the Spirit ...

so, contrary to your stated belief, not only can a person reject God's grace ... but in addition, a person can improperly utilize what God has given.
.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.