Question about the king of the Jews

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Shilohsfoal

Well-known member
Dec 27, 2018
1,152
97
48
#1
Who exactly does scripture say attempted to kill the Messiah after he was born,?



Revelation 12
12 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
 

jb

Senior Member
Feb 27, 2010
4,940
589
113
#2
Who exactly does scripture say attempted to kill the Messiah after he was born,?



Revelation 12
12 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
The "child" in Rev 12v2,4, is NOT the Lord Jesus!
 

vassal

Active member
Jan 20, 2024
414
194
43
#3
it was Herod

Micah 5:2 (KJV)
2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that isto be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

see Matthew 2
 

Adstar

Senior Member
Jul 24, 2016
7,427
3,481
113
#4
Who exactly does scripture say attempted to kill the Messiah after he was born,?



Revelation 12
12 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:

2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.

4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
I do not see this scripture as being about the birth of Jesus... I see it as being symbolic of the end times great tribulation... The woman is the church, the travailing in birth is the end times tribulation of the saints just before the second coming of the LORD Jesus.. The dragon is satan and the 1/3rd stars represent the 1/3rd of the angels that will be cast out of heaven down to earth after they are defeated in the battle against Micheal and His Angels..

(Revelation 12:7-12) "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, {8} And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. {9} And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. {10} And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. {11} And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. {12} Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."
 

Shilohsfoal

Well-known member
Dec 27, 2018
1,152
97
48
#5
it was Herod

Micah 5:2 (KJV)
2 But thou, Bethlehem Ephratah, though thou be little among the thousands of Judah, yet out of thee shall he come forth unto me that isto be ruler in Israel; whose goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.

see Matthew 2

Did Herod or his kingdom recieve a deadly wound?
 

Shilohsfoal

Well-known member
Dec 27, 2018
1,152
97
48
#6
I do not see this scripture as being about the birth of Jesus... I see it as being symbolic of the end times great tribulation... The woman is the church, the travailing in birth is the end times tribulation of the saints just before the second coming of the LORD Jesus.. The dragon is satan and the 1/3rd stars represent the 1/3rd of the angels that will be cast out of heaven down to earth after they are defeated in the battle against Micheal and His Angels..

(Revelation 12:7-12) "And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, {8} And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. {9} And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. {10} And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. {11} And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. {12} Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."
So who is it that ascends up to heaven to God's throne before the tribulation ever begins?The one who is to rule all nations with a rod of iron.



5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
 

p_rehbein

Senior Member
Sep 4, 2013
30,226
6,556
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#7
Matthew Henry's Commentary

(excerpt)

Here we see that early prophecy eminently fulfilled in which God said he would put enmity between the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent, Gen 3 15. You will observe,
I. The attempts of Satan and his agents to prevent the increase of the church, by devouring her offspring as soon as it was born; of this we have a very lively description in the most proper images.
1. We see how the church is represented in this vision. (1.) As a woman, the weaker part of the world, but the spouse of Christ, and the mother of the saints. (2.) As clothed with the sun, the imputed righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ. Having put on Christ, who is the Sun of righteousness, she, by her relation to Christ, is invested with honourable rights and privileges, and shines in his rays. (3.) As having the moon under her feet (that is, the world); she stands upon it, but lives above it; her heart and hope are not set upon sublunary things, but on the things that are in heaven, where her head is. (4.) As having on her head a crown of twelve stars, that is, the doctrine of the gospel preached by the twelve apostles, which is a crown of glory to all true believers. (5.) As in travail, crying out, and pained to be delivered. She was pregnant, and now in pain to bring forth a holy progeny to Christ, desirous that what was begun in the conviction of sinners might end in their conversion, that when the children were brought to the birth there might be strength to bring forth, and that she might see of the travail of her soul.



(here)

Revelation 12 Commentary - Matthew Henry Commentary …
 

montana123

Well-known member
Oct 9, 2021
747
252
63
#8
Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

This chapter is about the 7 years period that God is allowing the world to have their way and cause all people who do not love Him to follow the New Age Christ.

The woman is Israel which she is protected for the first three and one half years from physical attack.

The man child is Jesus which He will rule all nations with a rod of iron.

The dragon is Satan and the third part of the stars are the angels that followed him.

The 7 heads are 7 kingdoms 1.Egypt 2.Assyria 3.Babylon 4.Medo-Persia 5.Greece. 6.Roman Empire 7.10 horn kingdom the world split in to 10 sections with a leader in each section which is the physical dominion of the beast which they hand their power over to him.

The devil influenced those 7 kingdoms which the crowns are on the heads which is Satan in the spiritual realm deceiving people.

In chapter 12 the crowns are on the horns which is Satan in the physical realm deceiving people as the antichrist.

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

This is not the rebellion in the third heaven and is a war that is in the future which after the first three and one half years the transgressors have come to the full, and Satan and his angels are cast to earth which becomes their holding cell, and Satan appears as the beast, and the devils deceive all people who do not love God to follow the New Age Christ which is the strong delusion He will send all people who love not the truth, but have pleasure in unrighteousness.

Israel is protected for the last three and one half years from physical attack, and is sent 2 witnesses to turn her to the truth that Jesus is their Messiah.

The devil goes against all people who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ for the last three and one half years, and when they shall have scattered the power of the holy people then all things are finished.

Which then comes the end when the Son shall deliver up the kingdom to God and put down all authority, power, and rule.
 

Shilohsfoal

Well-known member
Dec 27, 2018
1,152
97
48
#9
Matthew Henry's Commentary

(excerpt)

Here we see that early prophecy eminently fulfilled in which God said he would put enmity between the seed of the woman and the seed of the serpent, Gen 3 15. You will observe,
I. The attempts of Satan and his agents to prevent the increase of the church, by devouring her offspring as soon as it was born; of this we have a very lively description in the most proper images.
1. We see how the church is represented in this vision. (1.) As a woman, the weaker part of the world, but the spouse of Christ, and the mother of the saints. (2.) As clothed with the sun, the imputed righteousness of the Lord Jesus Christ. Having put on Christ, who is the Sun of righteousness, she, by her relation to Christ, is invested with honourable rights and privileges, and shines in his rays. (3.) As having the moon under her feet (that is, the world); she stands upon it, but lives above it; her heart and hope are not set upon sublunary things, but on the things that are in heaven, where her head is. (4.) As having on her head a crown of twelve stars, that is, the doctrine of the gospel preached by the twelve apostles, which is a crown of glory to all true believers. (5.) As in travail, crying out, and pained to be delivered. She was pregnant, and now in pain to bring forth a holy progeny to Christ, desirous that what was begun in the conviction of sinners might end in their conversion, that when the children were brought to the birth there might be strength to bring forth, and that she might see of the travail of her soul.



(here)

Revelation 12 Commentary - Matthew Henry Commentary …
So who is the man child that was born and sits on the throne of God?

And who is it that tried to kill him when he was born?
 

Shilohsfoal

Well-known member
Dec 27, 2018
1,152
97
48
#10
Rev 12:1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
Rev 12:2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
Rev 12:3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
Rev 12:4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
Rev 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

This chapter is about the 7 years period that God is allowing the world to have their way and cause all people who do not love Him to follow the New Age Christ.

The woman is Israel which she is protected for the first three and one half years from physical attack.

The man child is Jesus which He will rule all nations with a rod of iron.

The dragon is Satan and the third part of the stars are the angels that followed him.

The 7 heads are 7 kingdoms 1.Egypt 2.Assyria 3.Babylon 4.Medo-Persia 5.Greece. 6.Roman Empire 7.10 horn kingdom the world split in to 10 sections with a leader in each section which is the physical dominion of the beast which they hand their power over to him.

The devil influenced those 7 kingdoms which the crowns are on the heads which is Satan in the spiritual realm deceiving people.

In chapter 12 the crowns are on the horns which is Satan in the physical realm deceiving people as the antichrist.

Rev 12:7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
Rev 12:8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
Rev 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
Rev 12:10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Rev 12:11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
Rev 12:12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
Rev 12:13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
Rev 12:14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
Rev 12:15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
Rev 12:16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
Rev 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

This is not the rebellion in the third heaven and is a war that is in the future which after the first three and one half years the transgressors have come to the full, and Satan and his angels are cast to earth which becomes their holding cell, and Satan appears as the beast, and the devils deceive all people who do not love God to follow the New Age Christ which is the strong delusion He will send all people who love not the truth, but have pleasure in unrighteousness.

Israel is protected for the last three and one half years from physical attack, and is sent 2 witnesses to turn her to the truth that Jesus is their Messiah.

The devil goes against all people who keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ for the last three and one half years, and when they shall have scattered the power of the holy people then all things are finished.

Which then comes the end when the Son shall deliver up the kingdom to God and put down all authority, power, and rule.
Ok,if Jesus is the man child that was born,who tried to kill him after he was born?
 

Shilohsfoal

Well-known member
Dec 27, 2018
1,152
97
48
#11
The "child" in Rev 12v2,4, is NOT the Lord Jesus!
Are you saying someone else will sit on the throne of God other than Jesus?

Rev 12:5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

Revelation 3:21
To the one who is victorious, I will give the right to sit with me on my throne, just as I was victorious and sat down with my Father on his throne.
 

Shilohsfoal

Well-known member
Dec 27, 2018
1,152
97
48
#13
The woman Is Israel,

The dragon is Satan

Satan's tool to kill the child was Herod.
I read scripture and I see where Herod tried to kill Jesus,But I don't see where Satan tried to kill Jesus.

Mathew 2:13
When they had gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. “Get up,” he said, “take the child and his mother and escape to Egypt. Stay there until I tell you, for Herod is going to search for the child to kill him.”


There's nothing there about Satan.Just Herod.
I also understand Herod only had authority within his kingdom ,but anyone outside of his kingdom would be out of his reach.


Revelation 12:14
The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach.


It appears this this specific serpent has no authority outside of a certain area. lol
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
5,015
1,540
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#14
I read scripture and I see where Herod tried to kill Jesus,But I don't see where Satan tried to kill Jesus.

Mathew 2:13
When they had gone, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream. “Get up,” he said, “take the child and his mother and escape to Egypt. Stay there until I tell you, for Herod is going to search for the child to kill him.”


There's nothing there about Satan.Just Herod.
I also understand Herod only had authority within his kingdom ,but anyone outside of his kingdom would be out of his reach.
Who do you think convinced Herod to kill him?



Revelation 12:14
The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach.


It appears this this specific serpent has no authority outside of a certain area. lol
This is speaking of a future event, The woman is still Israel. God promised if they went, he would protect them. Just as he protected jesus by telling the parents to take him to Egypt.
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
24,503
12,954
113
#15
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
The dragon is Satan, who wanted Christ killed as soon as He was born. Satan had been told by God that Christ would destroy him. So Satan used Herod to attempt this murder, but the wise men were commanded to not go back to Herod. But in his rage he had all the young children in Bethlehem killed (no doubt hoping that Christ was still there).
 

Shilohsfoal

Well-known member
Dec 27, 2018
1,152
97
48
#16
Who do you think convinced Herod to kill him?




This is speaking of a future event, The woman is still Israel. God promised if they went, he would protect them. Just as he protected jesus by telling the parents to take him to Egypt.

The serpent can't go outside of his kingdom .He has no authority outside of his kingdom.

Do you understand?

14 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach.


Herod has no authority outside of his kingdom.Satan could go outside Herods kingdom.
It's not satan that tried to kill Jesus nor is it Satan that can't go into the wilderness.


Mathew 4
4 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil

The woman is not fleeing into the wilderness to get away from the devil.She is fleeing into the wilderness to be out of Herods reach.
 

Shilohsfoal

Well-known member
Dec 27, 2018
1,152
97
48
#17
The dragon is Satan, who wanted Christ killed as soon as He was born. Satan had been told by God that Christ would destroy him. So Satan used Herod to attempt this murder, but the wise men were commanded to not go back to Herod. But in his rage he had all the young children in Bethlehem killed (no doubt hoping that Christ was still there).
The woman flees into the wilderness out of the serpents reach.

Mathew
4 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil


The devil has no problem reaching the wilderness.Herod is the one who has no authority in the wilderness.He has no authority outside his little kingdom.
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
5,015
1,540
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#18
The serpent can't go outside of his kingdom .He has no authority outside of his kingdom.

Do you understand?

14 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach.


Herod has no authority outside of his kingdom.Satan could go outside Herods kingdom.
It's not satan that tried to kill Jesus nor is it Satan that can't go into the wilderness.


Mathew 4
4 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil

The woman is not fleeing into the wilderness to get away from the devil.She is fleeing into the wilderness to be out of Herods reach.
The world is satan's kingdom.

Do you understand this?

Satan convinced Herod to try to kill the newborn king.

There is no other explanation of This passage in revelation
 

jamessb

Active member
Feb 10, 2024
738
121
43
Santa Fe NM
#19
The serpent can't go outside of his kingdom .He has no authority outside of his kingdom.

Do you understand?

14 The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the wilderness, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach.


Herod has no authority outside of his kingdom.Satan could go outside Herods kingdom.
It's not satan that tried to kill Jesus nor is it Satan that can't go into the wilderness.


Mathew 4
4 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil

The woman is not fleeing into the wilderness to get away from the devil.She is fleeing into the wilderness to be out of Herods reach.
Revelation is a vision seen by John. It cannot be interpreted otherwise without running into serious problems.
 

Shilohsfoal

Well-known member
Dec 27, 2018
1,152
97
48
#20
The world is satan's kingdom.

Do you understand this?

Satan convinced Herod to try to kill the newborn king.

There is no other explanation of This passage in revelation
Can you quote the scripture that says Satan convinced Herod to kill Jesus?