Predestination is misunderstood...

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FollowerofShiloh

FollowerofShiloh

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maxamir said:
all Christians still sin and they hate that sin whereas before they used to love that sin and they look forward to that day when they will be completely free from the presence of sin.
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You must have been born into parents in the Church. A real sinner hates most of what he does. That's why they commit suicide, become a drunk, a dope addict because they hate themselves.
 
maxamir

maxamir

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sawdust said:
He blinds them to the truth after showing them the truth. When men are charged under sin apart from grace they are indeed in a hopeless position, hence the ministry of the Spirit to convict of sin, righteousness and judgement. Once a person is made aware of their need, then they are ready to hear the Gospel. Paul said the Law is spiritual (Rom.7:14) yet all Israel was expected to live by it whether they were believers or not. It seems to me you confuse understanding spiritual matters and hearing the word. All Israel heard the word of the Lord and were made free (by grace) to accept or reject, yet only those who were born again understood it.

Unfortunately your position of regeneration prior to receiving the Gospel has God saving men from spiritual death in order to save them from spiritual death. Pure nonsense.
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your view that man is responsible for his own salvation and can therefore boast in his choice contrary to the Scripture below, robs God of the glory of His salvation which belongs to Hi alone and not the choice of me and you do realise that God is a jealous God don't you?


Co 1:27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty;
1Co 1:28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are,
1Co 1:29 that no flesh should glory in His presence.
 
maxamir

maxamir

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Thunderrr-mental said:
I would like you to show me where children are born slaves to satan.

I have scripture that shows children are born to a promise
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Luk 4:18 "THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME, BECAUSE HE HAS ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR; HE HAS SENT ME TO HEAL THE BROKENHEARTED, TO PROCLAIM LIBERTY TO THE CAPTIVES AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND, TO SET AT LIBERTY THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED;

Joh_8:34 Jesus answered them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin.

1Jn 3:8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
 
maxamir

maxamir

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FollowerofShiloh said:
You must have been born into parents in the Church. A real sinner hates most of what he does. That's why they commit suicide, become a drunk, a dope addict because they hate themselves.
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some sinners hate the effects of their sin but do not hate their sin which is an offence to a thrice holy God.

Please consider these truths prayerfully.

Until next time.
 
sawdust

sawdust

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maxamir said:
Everyone does indeed choose whatever they will but Scripture confirms it is NOT God because every person is born spiritually dead
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Scripture also confirms that when God speaks there are those who hear and listen and even though they are not in a position to do anything about their bondage to sin, it does not mean they are not willing to live for God. Romans 7 makes it very clear that Paul understood the position of man was torn in two when awakened to God (the Romans 1 type who did not reject God's existence and continued to learn from the Father as per John 6:45) and eventually recognises he must cry out to God for salvation if he is to know peace.
 
Thunderrr-mental

Thunderrr-mental

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maxamir said:
Luk 4:18 "THE SPIRIT OF THE LORD IS UPON ME, BECAUSE HE HAS ANOINTED ME TO PREACH THE GOSPEL TO THE POOR; HE HAS SENT ME TO HEAL THE BROKENHEARTED, TO PROCLAIM LIBERTY TO THE CAPTIVES AND RECOVERY OF SIGHT TO THE BLIND, TO SET AT LIBERTY THOSE WHO ARE OPPRESSED;

Joh_8:34 Jesus answered them, "Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin.

1Jn 3:8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil.
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none of this says children are born slaves to satan,

Would you like me to show you where children are born to a promise,

Or do you know which scripture it is.
 
sawdust

sawdust

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maxamir said:
your view that man is responsible for his own salvation and can therefore boast in his choice contrary to the Scripture below, robs God of the glory of His salvation which belongs to Hi alone and not the choice of me and you do realise that God is a jealous God don't you?


Co 1:27 But God has chosen the foolish things of the world to put to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to put to shame the things which are mighty;
1Co 1:28 and the base things of the world and the things which are despised God has chosen, and the things which are not, to bring to nothing the things that are,
1Co 1:29 that no flesh should glory in His presence.
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My view is that God is responsible for our salvation.

Your inability to comprehend that man can use his will freely once God has supplied the grace needed for that to happen and enables him to see the truth and uses His power to ensure the sin nature does not control his thinking while the truth is presented to him, is why you think I have it wrong.

Why can man choose God freely if he is given the needed grace? Because that is what he was designed for so there is no more boasting in that choice any more than there is in a bird's ability to fly. God gave us brains to think with, ears to hear with and volition to make choices between good and evil. He expects us to use them which is why he tells us to do the believing.
 
HeIsHere

HeIsHere

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maxamir said:
many people deny God's sovereignty and therefore the word supreme adds to the extent of His sovereignty and that He is LORD over all.
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It is not a matter of denial, it is a denial of the Calvinist definition and interpretation.

How do you define God's sovereignty.
 
HeIsHere

HeIsHere

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maxamir said:
God commands His people to reflect the love that was shown to them while they were His enemies
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I thought God did not love His enemies? :unsure:

How can they be commanded to do something they never experienced?
 
HeIsHere

HeIsHere

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brightfame52 said:
Thats sounds like works, and God responding to someone ?? Thats definitely not right. Faith/Believing in Christ is Gods work in a individual Jn 6:29

29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God[in you], that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

If man could believe in Christ on his own, then he does Gods work. However man cannot believe on Christ on his own Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Drawing him to believe in Christ is Gods work
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Faith is a work?

God is unresponsive to His creation?

You worship an unmovable God who randomly makes decisions based on nothing we can know?
 
Genez

Genez

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maxamir said:
God indeed knew who would believe on Him because He chose to grant them that belief as a gift of grace.
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He chose them to believe? Then, could he do that with anyone?
​
"This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men to ​
be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." 1 Timothy 2:3-4​

What happened? Where did your God's sovereignty concept go to with that passage?


Actually, he chose us to be the Bride of Christ. Moses was not chosen before the foundations
of the earth to be a part of the Church.

Her chose us and predestined us as to when we should be alive on earth when we believed.
He sovereignly chose us out from all those whom He always knew would believe.

Only those chosen in Christ God predetermined would be in the body of Christ.

Ephesians 1:3-4

Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly ​
realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. For he chose us in him before the creation of ​
the world to be holy and blameless in his sight.​

He chose is "in Him" to be like Eve's body was "in Adam." We are the Bride of Christ!

grace and peace .............
 
Genez

Genez

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HeIsHere said:
Faith is a work?

God is unresponsive to His creation?

You worship an unmovable God who randomly makes decisions based on nothing we can know?
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Hyper- Calvinism seems to have an affinity with fatalistic people with sub clinical masochistic tendencies.

Its a self abusive form of logic.
 
J

John146

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brightfame52 said:
Yes it is, exclusively. Thats why in Vs 13 its called the Gospel of their Salvation Eph 1:13
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Paul was reminded them of their salvation and how it occurred and what they have coming to them now that they are in Christ.

1. hear the gospel
2. believe the gospel
3. sealed by the Holy Spirit of promise which now guarantees the future redemption of their body.
 
B

brightfame52

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Genez said:
Not all are getting saved. But all are being presented the same grace that brings salvation.

Take a close look at Romans 1:18-32. We see the worst reprobates we can think of, even they God made them able to know God is real....
God was drawing them unto what could have become salvation...

....
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All Christ died for will be saved by Grace, the election of Grace
 
B

brightfame52

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sawdust said:
Predestination is based on God's foreknowledge. Ergo, He knew us before He decided on our destiny.

Romans 8:29
For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
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Gods foreknowledge is based on His Predestination Acts 2:23

Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

God foreknows events because He predetermined them, duh
 
B

brightfame52

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sawdust said:
If they are regenerated they are already alive and saved from death and don't need the Gospel.
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Wrong, the Gospel to them is the Gospel of their Salvation, its good news to find out you are saved Duh
 
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