Who Justifieth the Ungodly

brightfame52 · Mar 23, 2024

Does God Justify unbelievers ?

In other words, can a person be in a state of active unbelief and yet at the same time be Justified before Gods Law and Justice ?

The answer is absolutely yes, or we must do away with this scripture Rom 4:5

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Now understand, if a person is ungodly, they are an unbeliever ! Its plain that God here in this scripture has Justified as such !

Therefore some sinners are Justified before their personal God given Faith causes them to believe. Now unfortunately all sinners, ungodly men and women are Justified while in that state, but instead thy are condemned and under Gods wrath Jn 3:18,36

18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. 37

reneweddaybyday · Mar 23, 2024

brightfame52 said:

I have been telling you for years, brightfame52, that faith is not works and that is why salvation is wholly by God's grace through faith ... just as is stated in Scripture.

Do you now (finally) agree that faith is not works??? ... or must we go through another 218+ pages of your denial of this truth???

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reneweddaybyday · Mar 23, 2024

brightfame52 said:

We have already gone through this verse, brightfame52:

the "elect" referred to in Rom 8:33 are those who are born again through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ ... those who are in Christ Jesus (Rom 8:1) ... those who walk after the Spirit (Rom 8:4) ... those in whom the Spirit of God dwells (Rom 8:9) ... those who are led by the Spirit of God (Rom 8:14) ... those who love God (Rom 8:28) ... those who are being conformed to the image of His Son (Rom 8:29)

I have told you before and I will continue to tell you ...

God's purpose is that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life (John 3:16). Once the whosoever believeth is born again, then the Elect (the Lord Jesus Christ) is in him or her and he or she is in the Elect ... then he or she is considered "elect". This truth does not negate the fact that the Lord Jesus Christ died for the whole world ... all descendants of Adam.

brightfame52 said:

Why do you jump from Rom 8:33 to Rom 3:24 to Rom 5:19 without considering the context within which the verses have been placed by the Author of Scripture?

Romans 3:24 tells us it is through grace the God justifies those who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ

Romans 3:

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

brightfame52 said:

... straw man ... no one disputes that the Lord Jesus Christ is the Lamb slain before the foundation of the world ... and that God established His plan of redemption before He created the world and all that is therein.

God justifies those who believe in the Lord Jesus Christ ... confess Jesus Christ is Lord and belief in His death and resurrection results in a person being saved:

Romans 10:

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.

13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

vs 9-11 – when you confess Jesus Christ is Lord and believe in your heart the God raised Him from the dead you will be saved ... you are not saved before you confess and believe ... you are saved when you believe ... and when you believe, you will not be ashamed.
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reneweddaybyday · Mar 23, 2024

brightfame52 said:

... righteousness is not imputed to a person until he or she believes.

God imputed righteousness to Abraham when Abraham believed:

Genesis 15:6 And he [Abraham] believed in the LORD; and he [God] counted it to him [Abraham] for righteousness.

Righteousness was not imputed to Abraham before Abraham believed. Righteousness was imputed to Abraham when he believed.

Romans 4:

20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it was imputed to him [Abraham] for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it [righteousness] was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus

In Romans 4:24, the verbs are all in the present tense which means that God imputes righteousness the moment the person believes notwithstanding the fact that the plan of redemption by God took place before the foundation of the world.

brightfame52 said:

The Lord Jesus Christ died for the whole world ... all descendants of Adam:

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
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reneweddaybyday · Mar 23, 2024

brightfame52 said:

... wrong ... the only way you can conclude what you surmise is by completely disregarding the words "but believeth on Him that justifieth" and "his faith".

Romans 4:5 tells us that the ungodly person believeth on Him that justifieth the ungodly (meaning the person who believes) ... and when he or she believes, God imputes righteousness to him or her. At that point, the person is no longer ungodly.

The point of Romans 4:5 is that faith is not works.

brightfame52 said:

... no one is justified before they believe.

brightfame52, God has given faith to all mankind ... all descendants of Adam.

The issue is not "do you have faith".

The issue is "in what (or better yet, in Whom) do you place your faith".

Those who place their faith in the lies of the adversary are the ones who do not believe the truth God has plainly laid out in Scripture.

Those who place their faith in God are the ones who are justified by God because they believe in Him.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

If we believe, we are not condemned.

If we do not believe, we are condemned.

John 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

If we believe, we have everlasting life.

If we do not believe, we shall not see life.

Why do you continue to argue with God? Just believe what He has written without adding, changing, or omitting words.
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brightfame52 · Mar 28, 2024

Justification by Faith is by promise. God promised to Justify a particular seed by Faith, its a Gospel Promise. Its the seed of Abraham Gal 3:7-9

7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children/seed of Abraham.

8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.

9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham.

The blessing of which all nations be blessed is " God Justifying through Faith" So Justification by Faith is a promised blessing to the seed of Abraham, his Spiritual seed.

Again the promise of God Rom 3:30

Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

The word shall denotes Gods promise to do something.

Justification by Faith depends on Gods Promise, and therefore sure to all the seed Rom 4:16

Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

brightfame52 · Apr 2, 2024

Rom 5:18 shows us Justification solely by Christs death

Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

The one act of Christ dying on the Cross for the sins of Gods elect people, resulted in their Justification of life. 40

brightfame52 · Apr 3, 2024

Justification is a free gift to all whom Christ died !

Rom 5:16

16 And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.

By Christs one obedience, in contrast to the one who sinned, our natural father adam, resulting in condemnation, yet in contrast, Christs suretyship acts for those He was spiritual father and head/surety, resulted for them, Justification as a free gift. The free gift of acquittal and acceptance into the favor of God !

brightfame52 · Apr 4, 2024

To be Justified by Faith,

Thats is when a Justified person comes into a spiritual apprehension/knowledge and enjoyment of the Justification and reconciliation which Christ has wrought for us to God, so by Faith we come to know Spiritually that God is our God, and we are in His favor . Our Faith didn't cause that, but reveals and receives that.

brightfame52 · Apr 5, 2024

We receive Justification by Faith when Gods sentence of Justification He has for us because of the blood of Christ shed for us, when that sentence terminates in our sanctified hearts and minds, which persuades us to believe in Jesus Christ. So we receive Justification by the effectual persuasion of our minds and hearts to believe in Jesus for what He has already accomplished. Read what Paul says here 1 Thess 1:5

For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake.

The word assurance is the greek word plērophoria:

full assurance, most certain confidence,
- to be persuaded, persuaded, fully convinced or assured

So to be Justified by Faith is when we have been persuaded that God Justifed us on the basis of Christs blood Rom 5:9

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him. 40

PennEd · Apr 5, 2024

brightfame52 said:

I think after the relentless back forth for several yrs now between you 2, she has finally given up.

I didn't even see a
"READ YOUR BIBLE" after her last post.

Don't know who justifieth the ungodly, but sure looks like you've outlasted her.
Congrats.

2ndTimeIsTheCharm · Apr 5, 2024

PennEd said:

The Bible says to not keep arguing because it ruins the hearers. It looks like neither one was willing to just give this to God and trust Him to lead readers to the right conclusion.

2 Timothy 2:14 Keep reminding God’s people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. 15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth. 16 Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. 17 Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, 18 who have departed from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some. 19 Nevertheless, God’s solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness.”

So this passage shows that God knows that false teaching WILL and HAS already proliferated. So it tells me that I wouldn't need to go on arguing some point as if being the last or the one who has outlasted necessarily means that they are right or that God approves their message. God will deal with that Himself.

📚

reneweddaybyday · Apr 7, 2024

brightfame52 said:

Your stated conclusion is not the point of Galatians 3.

According to Gal 3:2, Paul is speaking to those who have already received Holy Spirit (i.e. they are already born again believers):

Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Paul reproved the Galatian believers because they turned from the just shall live by faith to the works of the law:

Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

The point is that we were born again through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and we continue to grow and mature through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. We do not turn from Him in a vain attempt to now be made perfect by the flesh.

Galatians 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Then your stated verses come wherein the point is God imputes righteousness to those who believe and God clearly states that God justifies the heathen through faith.

Now continue reading and don't forget that God is talking about living by faith as opposed living by the works of the law:

Galatians 3:11-12 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

The justified ones are to continue to live by faith. We are not to turn from living by faith to the works of the law.

brightfame52 said:

... the word "shall" is not in the text.

The point of Rom 3:30 is that whether Jew or gentile, a person is justified by faith.

Romans 3:28-30 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

God justifies the Jews through faith and God justifies the gentiles through faith.
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reneweddaybyday · Apr 7, 2024

brightfame52 said:

... if your so-called "Gods elect people" do not believe, the result is not "their justification".

Can you read from verse 1 to verse 18 and keep in mind what God told you in verse 1?

Romans 5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ
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reneweddaybyday · Apr 7, 2024

brightfame52 said:

... the Lord Jesus Christ died for the whole world ... all descendants of Adam:

John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.

John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

1 John 2:2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
.

reneweddaybyday · Apr 7, 2024

brightfame52 said:

... to be justified by faith is what God says it is ... to be justified by faith is not what you claim in your erroneous dogma.

brightfame52 said:

r - i - g - h - t ... no need to believe that God is Who He says He is ... that the Lord Jesus Christ is Who He says He is ... that the Lord Jesus Christ died our sins ... that the Lord Jesus Christ was raised from the dead ...

Romans 10:

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

according to your erroneous dogma, we just need to come "into a spiritual apprehension/knowledge and enjoyment of the Justification and reconciliation" hogwash you spew from your keyboard.

2 Thessalonians 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie
.

reneweddaybyday · Apr 7, 2024

brightfame52 said:

... "our sanctified hearts and minds" do not exist in us until we are born again ... so you've got the cart before the horse.

Hear the words of Paul and Silas when the jailer asked "sirs, what must I do to be saved"

Acts 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

Believe ... then saved ...

brightfame52 said:

keep reading, brightfame52, if you can stand to read to the end of the chapter:

1 Thessalonians 1:

8 For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing.

9 For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;

10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

The Thessalonian church is a great example of faith ... turn to God from idols ... and an idol can be the false teaching of erroneous dogma. Anything that causes us to turn from God is an idol.

brightfame52 said:

note the words "now justified", brightfame52. The "now justified" means they're justified when they believe ... not in eternity past you keep yammering about.

and just to be clear, we are to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ ... Who He is ... Who God says He is ...

John 3:

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
.

reneweddaybyday · Apr 7, 2024

PennEd said:

just for you, PennEd:

READ YOUR BIBLE!!!

(then you'd know "who justifieth the ungodly") ... just sayin'
.

reneweddaybyday · Apr 7, 2024

2ndTimeIsTheCharm said:

I trust God ... which is why I reply to brightfame52 and provide the context of the verses which are ripped from Scripture.

Scripture tells us faith by hearing, and hearing by the word of God (Romans 10:17). If people do not hear the word of God, then ruin comes from hearing the opinions of man.

2 Timothy 2:

14 Of these things put them in remembrance, charging them before the Lord that they strive not about words to no profit, but to the subverting of the hearers.

15 Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

vs 14 – it is man's words and opinions which are "words to no profit" ... that is what subverts the hearers.

vs 15 – as we rightly divide the word of truth, we are able to provide the correction to the "words to no profit" so that hearers of the unprofitable words are not subverted.
.

brightfame52 · Apr 7, 2024

reneweddaybyday said:

Your stated conclusion is not the point of Galatians 3.

According to Gal 3:2, Paul is speaking to those who have already received Holy Spirit (i.e. they are already born again believers):

Galatians 3:2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Paul reproved the Galatian believers because they turned from the just shall live by faith to the works of the law:

Galatians 3:3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh?

The point is that we were born again through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and we continue to grow and mature through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ. We do not turn from Him in a vain attempt to now be made perfect by the flesh.

Galatians 3:5 He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Then your stated verses come wherein the point is God imputes righteousness to those who believe and God clearly states that God justifies the heathen through faith.

Now continue reading and don't forget that God is talking about living by faith as opposed living by the works of the law:

Galatians 3:11-12 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith. And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.

The justified ones are to continue to live by faith. We are not to turn from living by faith to the works of the law.

... the word "shall" is not in the text.

The point of Rom 3:30 is that whether Jew or gentile, a person is justified by faith.

Romans 3:28-30 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.

God justifies the Jews through faith and God justifies the gentiles through faith.
.

Justification by Faith is by promise. God promised to Justify a particular seed by Faith, its a Gospel Promise. Its the seed of Abraham Isa 45:25

25 In the Lord shall all the seed of Israel be justified, and shall glory.

Who Justifieth the Ungodly

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