The 'ELECT' vs 'Free-Choice'

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Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
2,952
419
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I agree that the natural man can know that he breaks the laws that man has made, but he does not believe that there is a spiritual heaven, or anything else that is of a spiritual nature.
Knowing those things is not what saves him....

What saves him transforms him into being able to know those things.

In other words? One does not have to be first regenerate to be made regenerate.
That right there should have set off warning lights on the logic meter board.


grace and peace .........
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,130
3,689
113
Yes.... But what Jesus told the disciples was to pertain to the Church age.
We do not function the same way as OT believers. They did not have the indwelling Holy Spirit like we do.

"For it is God who works in you to will and to act in order to fulfill his good purpose." Philippians 2:13​

When we are controlled by the filling of the Spirit? If we are being filled?

We are being led into what God wants us to pray for.

OT believers did not have that ability granted to them. They just prayed what the felt, even though when we pray we may feel what we are to pray for.
The NT did not begin until after the death of the testator. Paul prayed all the time for God to move in his life and others. Pray matters!
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
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Knowing those things is not what saves him....

What saves him transforms him into being able to know those things.

In other words? One does not have to be first regenerate to be made regenerate.
That right there should have set off warning lights on the logic meter board.


grace and peace .........

Can you give me scripture for your statement, that I may respond?
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
2,952
419
83
Can you give me scripture for your statement, that I may respond?
I can give you a Pastor-teacher to listen to.
He asks for no money to send you exegetical teaching.

For what you ask for? To be honest... would require you learning accurately some foundational doctrines you have been denied.
If the Spirit leads you to do so?
Just ask...

grace and peace ...............
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
2,952
419
83
The NT did not begin until after the death of the testator. Paul prayed all the time for God to move in his life and others. Pray matters!
I believe you're misunderstanding and missing my point....

I was speaking (originally) about praying to get others saved.
God is not going to reach in and adjust the unbeliever's volition to make him believe.
Even Paul saw this and was sorrowful and pained for his unbeliever Jewish people...

But, I was not saying we should not pray for our needs, nor the needs of others.
For its through prayer that we are shown by God, that God is answering our prayer
by the reassurance the Spirit will give us when what we pray is God's will.

Hope that helps....
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
16,536
493
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I believe you're misunderstanding and missing my point....

I was speaking (originally) about praying to get others saved.
God is not going to reach in and adjust the unbeliever's volition to make him believe.
Even Paul saw this and was sorrowful and pained for his unbeliever Jewish people...

But, I was not saying we should not pray for our needs, nor the needs of others.
For its through prayer that we are shown by God, that God is answering our prayer
by the reassurance the Spirit will give us when what we pray is God's will.

Hope that helps....
I think this: as learning this

Nevertheless your will Father not mine! trusting you to reveal your truth of Love and mercy to us all to believe, you do care for us all to be safe to us all, and not harm others over doctrine of what we the people conjecture as truth and then fight over it, as if we are somebody more special than others as I see in scripture of Luke18:9-14

Two men went to the Temple and each prayed. One the wrong way and the other the correct way to God, that Father of Jesus the Son that is now risen today for us to be in by his love and mercy of Son once for us all to believe and be in with them as one with his win on that cross in the resurrected Son, where this new life given is at for us each one, Each in belief growing in God's grace given them to stand in and grow up in maturity while making mistakes first to see truth and do new in not doing that ignorant thing again all the way down to having a thorn in our flesh, to ask for that to go away too. Only to hear from God, "My Grace is sufficient for you too" hopefully we each begin to see this importance to us all from God just loving us all.. I, personally need God to lead me, not me think I got it, I do not and never will (not s perfect) as that person thought he had it in Luke 18:9-14
Being better than others. No thank you
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
2,952
419
83
I think this: as learning this

Nevertheless your will Father not mine! trusting you to reveal your truth of Love and mercy to us all to believe, you do care for us all to be safe to us all, and not harm others over doctrine of what we the people conjecture as truth and then fight over it, as if we are somebody more special than others as I see in scripture of Luke18:9-14

Two men went to the Temple and each prayed. One the wrong way and the other the correct way to God, that Father of Jesus the Son that is now risen today for us to be in by his love and mercy of Son once for us all to believe and be in with them as one with his win on that cross in the resurrected Son, where this new life given is at for us each one, Each in belief growing in God's grace given them to stand in and grow up in maturity while making mistakes first to see truth and do new in not doing that ignorant thing again all the way down to having a thorn in our flesh, to ask for that to go away too. Only to hear from God, "My Grace is sufficient for you too" hopefully we each begin to see this importance to us all from God just loving us all.. I, personally need God to lead me, not me think I got it, I do not and never will (not s perfect) as that person thought he had it in Luke 18:9-14
Being better than others. No thank you
You really did think (assume) you were better than me on that one.

If not? Why did you make that point?

:unsure: ...see how we have to be careful ?
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
I can give you a Pastor-teacher to listen to.
He asks for no money to send you exegetical teaching.

For what you ask for? To be honest... would require you learning accurately some foundational doctrines you have been denied.
If the Spirit leads you to do so?
Just ask...

grace and peace ...............[/QUOTE

I take this as a cop out, meaning you have no scripture stating what you commented on.
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
2,952
419
83
Can you give me scripture for your statement, that I may respond?

:) It was in response to the Scripture that you cited!


The natural man, according to 1 Cor 2:14, cannot receive the things of the Spirit, until he has been quickened to a new spiritual life, thinking them to be foolishness.
 

Burn1986

Active member
Mar 4, 2024
918
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I have come across an idea lately within this forum, that some believe that there are 2 classes of Christian. They believe that there is a class called 'the elect', who have no choice but to be saved because God has decided they will be saved no matter what and the 2nd class being those who are not elect but are still able to be saved through choosing Christ.

This is different from Calvinism as Calvinism believes God decides, or has decided, who will be saved and who will never be saved.

It is also not Arminianism because choice is given, according to this belief, to everyone.

While people will continue to debate reformed vs non-reformed, this 2 tier believer system is not available as a 3rd option that I have found nor anyone else or anywhere for that matter. I have searched different teachers/teachings, various articles and so on and the conclusions of people more knowledgeable than anyone in this forum, is that it does not exist.

Just interested in what others might have to say. I have no idea whether or not the person(s) presenting this idea will defend what they believe or not.

For clairity's sake, I am neither reformed or non-reformed. I tend to think that no one can come up with exactly what the Bible has in mind when it states 'from the foundation of the world'. I do not agree with the approach of Calvinism to settle it and I do not appreciate the Arminiam viewpoint either because of problems it presents.

Not to start another debate about reformed/vs non, we have a library of those already, but to take a look at the elect who have no choice in being saved and the rest of humanity who can choose whether or not to accept Christ.

That's about it.
So where do you fall in all this?
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
2,952
419
83
The key to understanding that TULIP and Arminianism never considered?

When Jesus came to earth He demonstrated that though He be also God, that He could will to not be as God in His manifestation.

Who, though he was eternally existing in the form of God, did not count
equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, by taking
the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found
in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of
death, even death on a cross. Philippians 2:6-8​

While on earth Jesus placed himself to walk as man. For he was denying Himself His right to his omniscience, etc.
He made Himself to be as the Second Adam as he walked before God. He made himself to be fully dependent upon
the Father for anything requiring divine powers (omniscience), and the Holy Spirit for anything requiring supernatural power....

And... The key to man's free will is?

In eternity past when God determined that man was to be created?
He had all the souls of men created by the Son in the self limiting state as Jesus walked in!
That way? When all things were created through Him?
God's omniscience had no say in how we were to be created other than to be created by perfect righteousness!


For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible,
whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created
through him and for him."
Colossians 1:16


The Son was the divine filter through which God's power created all things!!!!!

all things were created
through him and for him."



The Son of God placed Himself into the same state as He proved He was capable of becoming by His example of Jesus being as a man!!!!!!!!

In other words? The Son having denied Himself the power of omniscience? He was set forth and created each one of us freely as He perfectly desired us to be, without effecting our volition ...
And after that feat was finished? God obliged in power to decree us being created, no matter how we would choose once we were made alive in time and space!

In that manner it was pure eloquence manifested by God to make Himself limited through the Son of God, made able to protect our wills when He created us in eternity past. Created in God's mind...

I pray that sinks deep with someone here. For its been the missing 'key' into understanding how an otherwise omniscient God was able to create us without predestining us to either heaven or hell. He did not know if we would accept or reject while creating us via the Son. We were created simply in the perfectly righteous love of the Son! The Son who while creating us chose to immerse Himself with the same limitations as He demonstrated when He came to earth to live as a man. A man who knew He was God, yet without functioning as God but as a man!

The well runs deep on this one.
 

tribesman

Senior Member
Oct 13, 2011
4,622
282
83
I have come across an idea lately within this forum, that some believe that there are 2 classes of Christian. They believe that there is a class called 'the elect', who have no choice but to be saved because God has decided they will be saved no matter what and the 2nd class being those who are not elect but are still able to be saved through choosing Christ.

This is different from Calvinism as Calvinism believes God decides, or has decided, who will be saved and who will never be saved.

It is also not Arminianism because choice is given, according to this belief, to everyone.

While people will continue to debate reformed vs non-reformed, this 2 tier believer system is not available as a 3rd option that I have found nor anyone else or anywhere for that matter. I have searched different teachers/teachings, various articles and so on and the conclusions of people more knowledgeable than anyone in this forum, is that it does not exist.

Just interested in what others might have to say. I have no idea whether or not the person(s) presenting this idea will defend what they believe or not.

For clairity's sake, I am neither reformed or non-reformed. I tend to think that no one can come up with exactly what the Bible has in mind when it states 'from the foundation of the world'. I do not agree with the approach of Calvinism to settle it and I do not appreciate the Arminiam viewpoint either because of problems it presents.

Not to start another debate about reformed/vs non, we have a library of those already, but to take a look at the elect who have no choice in being saved and the rest of humanity who can choose whether or not to accept Christ.

That's about it.
Ever heard of Martin Luther? Ever read his most well known works? Give it a try.
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
16,536
493
83
You really did think (assume) you were better than me on that one.

If not? Why did you make that point?

:unsure: ...see how we have to be careful ?
No I am nothing, just sharing, not challenging you or anyone, only share in care as agreed with your post. Not sure why you would think that about the post, the it was in context with yours, to me at least. Thanks
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
5,947
1,872
113
Its sad.

Both Armenian and Calvin views (fatalism) have major flaws in their doctrines.

The truth is Gods elect are saved (just not the way Calvin views it) and eternal security (also known by many as OSAS) is biblical fact.

Instead of studying a view. i think we would be better set to just study the word and not follow men
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
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:) It was in response to the Scripture that you cited!
Ok then, explain to me how the natural man becomes regenerate. Ephesians 2:1-5 plainly explains that the natural man had no choice in his regeneration.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
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While people will continue to debate reformed vs non-reformed, this 2 tier believer system is not available as a 3rd option that I have found nor anyone else or anywhere for that matter. I have searched different teachers/teachings, various articles and so on and the conclusions of people more knowledgeable than anyone in this forum, is that it does not exist

The people who you say are more knowledgeable than anyone in this forum, stay away from. Prov 3:5 - Trust in the Lord with all thine heart, and lean not unto thine own understanding. Scripture proves scripture, along with Strong's concordance, and should be our only source of searching for the truth in harmonizing the scriptures.

Gal 1:11-16 - But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man, for I never received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ, for ye have heard of my conversation in times past in the Jews' religion how that beyond measure I persecuted the church of God, and wasted it, and profited in the Jews' religion above many my equals in mine own nation, being more exceedingly zealous of the traditions of my fathers, But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, to reveal is Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen, immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood.
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
5,947
1,872
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Ok then, explain to me how the natural man becomes regenerate. Ephesians 2:1-5 plainly explains that the natural man had no choice in his regeneration.
John 3:
10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man [b]who is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should [c]not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
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I think here you have the difference between an entire nation having being given a pre-set plan of destiny.. verses one individual.

So if Israel is called 'the elect'.. then that's the whole nation. They have been elected for a certain purpose/destiny. This isn't about eternal salvation necessarily.. but that in the end the nation has a planned end. So for eg.. God getting them together as a complete nation. That wasn't to do with their eternal salvation.. but God's plan to reunite them as one people.

Now so in this .. some of the Israelites have actually entrusted their salvation, by free will to Jesus. So they now have heaven pre-destined as a place they will go. Not that God had chosen them exclusively from others beyond their free will to have eternal life.. but that when they believed.. heaven was set as a place for them.

The other part of predestination.. is the planned destiny God has for His churches. What will happen with people who have been faithful in His churches.. is a different place in heaven to those who rejected His system of churches and went out on their own. Not that they will be sent to hell.. but have less rewards than a faithful church member.

So.. predestination has multi-facets.

The individual believer-- a place in heaven is predestined for them.
The faithful believer-- they have more rewards preset for them for being faithful.
An entire nation-- God has protected the likes of Israel and has a destiny for them in the end

Jacob, who God changed his name to be called Israel, is not the nation of Israel, but is the elect Israel (Rom 9:7-11)
 

Mem

Senior Member
Sep 23, 2014
7,159
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I wish people would just study their Bibles. They don’t even recognize truth when they read it. They read scripture, but they don’t understand any of it. And in their insecurity, they get mean and falsely accuse those who are trying to simply discuss in an iron-sharpening-iron way. They lash out because they have no ears to hear.

Oh well, what are you gonna do? Niki and 2nd aren’t able to debate nicely in a Christian fashion. Perhaps, well, I better not say. …
Lol. What happened to your bootlicker? Did he get banned?