The question of forgiveness

In regard to forgiveness of sins, I find that Christians have a difficult time reconciling the following verses with the teaching that "we are to forgive everyone all the time":

“And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

”Alexander the coppersmith did great harm to me. The Lord will repay him according to his deeds. You too should beware of him, for he has vigorously opposed our message.”

(What repayment is left on a forgiven debt?)

“But as for me, brothers and sisters, if I still preach circumcision, why am I still persecuted? Then the stumbling block of the cross has been eliminated. 12 I wish that those who are troubling you would even emasculate themselves.”

“For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We all have to do this showing that everything isn’t actually forgiven just willy nilly like

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10-11‬ ‭

If this is true then this can save those who hear and believe the words of the judge we all have to see

what if Christ honors his words he said will never pass away at judgement ? and I heard this and believed it and took this to my heart

“Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven: give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall be given into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.


And why call ye me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say? Whosoever cometh to me, and heareth my sayings, and doeth them, ( he just told us the law of mercy he the judge of all is saying it the one we have to answer to )

I will shew you to whom he is like: he is like a man which built an house, and digged deep, and laid the foundation on a rock: and when the flood arose, the stream beat vehemently upon that house, and could not shake it: for it was founded upon a rock.
( because this sinner is building his foundation on what the Lord said his judgements are )


But he that heareth, and doeth not, is like a man that without a foundation ( because he’s rejecting what the judgement is ) built an house upon the earth; against which the stream did beat vehemently, and immediately it fell; and the ruin of that house was great.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭6:37-38, 46-49‬ ‭

If this is true

“But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭12:36‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Do you see how this can save me because o do still have to answer for my deeds like everyone this is very very important to accept notice this is being said to God the Fathers children by the Son in whom we believe

“And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses. But if ye do not forgive, neither will your Father which is in heaven forgive your trespasses.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭11:25-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Notice we can’t make this about unbelievers because the believers in Jesus are his children it’s being said to those who are willing to hear his judgements in the gospel.

without the things Jesus taught were flying blind because

“Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons: but in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. The word which God sent unto the children of Israel, preaching peace by Jesus Christ: (he is Lord of all And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:34-36, 42-43‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If we believe something important we act upon it

Brother read Jesus parable of the unforgiving debtor it’s telling us about his kingdom and how it is . A man shows up with a debt he cannot pay so he asks for mercy the lord is compassionate and forgives all his debt by mercy totally wiped his whole debt away .

the man goes out rejoicing but he sees another man who owes him a small debt and it’s the same situation the man pleads with him to forgive or give him time to pay him but the man doesn’t give him the same mercy he receives for his big huge debt and has the man closed and thrown in prison till he pays him

after this happens the original man who had his debt canceled re appears with his whole debt reinstated because he would not give the same mercy and forgivness that he received

ashen Jesus begins parables “ the kingdom of God is likened to …or Matthew words “ the kingdom of heaven is like ….it’s telling us about our covenant and the word of our king that cannot be removed or disregarded

This has always been true then

“Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.”
‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭12:13-14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

It’s still true

“But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; Who will render to every man according to his deeds: to them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: but unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; but glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: for there is no respect of persons with God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:5-11‬ ‭

now what if we heard the judges judgements regarding the day we must give account what if he told us ahead of time “ forgive and you shall be forgiven , don’t condemn and you won’t be condemned don’t judge everyone guilty all the time and you won’t be judged guilty ….?

Do you see how mercy relates to judgement that we all have to face ?

“But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ. For it is written, As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to me, And every tongue shall confess to God. So then every one of us shall give account of himself to God. Let us not therefore judge one another any more: but judge this rather, that no man put a stumblingblock or an occasion to fall in his brother's way.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭14:10-13‬ ‭

at here’s a New Testament Jesus words that went into effect after he died and rose not before but after all his words became the jidgement of god thisnis why bekieving the gospel saves us it’s preparing us to live through judgement by mercy and truth

That parable holds the right inderersnding we are forgiven when we believe but then if we reject his judgements we’re doing this because he is the judge and his words are the judgements of God in truth that actually save sinners and bring them to repentance

“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

But if we accept his word on the gospel he the judge

“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬

thats quite a word from the judge of humanity and when we face him for our deeds we want to have taken his judgements with us because he will honor what he said without fail

I understand this.

But...

When is it appropriate to retain the sins of others?
or
To claim the Lord will repay someone for their wickedness?
or
To wish those who are troubling the saints to be victims of their own sins?

Perhaps Peter's response to Simon the Sorcerer can give us a hint:

Peter answered: “May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord in the hope that he may forgive you for having such a thought in your heart. For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin.”

If I may, proper judgement cannot come from one with a victim's mindset. That type of mind demands a recompense. Only one who understands that their lives are hidden in Christ may properly judge the offender. Such a mind seeks nothing but the truth as revealed by the Lord.

So, for the young in Christ, I say "Always forgive" so that you may not be burdened by the sins of others and become ensnared in their ways. But to the mature I say "Judge properly"; What is the Spirit saying about person? It might be more beneficial to the person if their sins are retained; hardship because of sin could prompt the offender to repent.

Some may ask "How do I know if I am young or mature in the Lord?" In this case, if you are wondering if you should forgive, or are having issues with "always forgiving", then it is time you learn the ways of the mature and proper judgement. "Eternal Judgement" (judgement from the perspective of God) is an elementary doctrine.

I understand this.

But...

When is it appropriate to retain the sins of others?
or
To claim the Lord will repay someone for their wickedness?
or
To wish those who are troubling the saints to be victims of their own sins?

Perhaps Peter's response to Simon the Sorcerer can give us a hint:

Peter answered: “May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord in the hope that he may forgive you for having such a thought in your heart. For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin.”

If I may, proper judgement cannot come from one with a victim's mindset. That type of mind demands a recompense. Only one who understands that their lives are hidden in Christ may properly judge the offender. Such a mind seeks nothing but the truth as revealed by the Lord.

So, for the young in Christ, I say "Always forgive" so that you may not be burdened by the sins of others and become ensnared in their ways. But to the mature I say "Judge properly"; What is the Spirit saying about person? It might be more beneficial to the person if their sins are retained; hardship because of sin could prompt the offender to repent.

Some may ask "How do I know if I am young or mature in the Lord?" In this case, if you are wondering if you should forgive, or are having issues with "always forgiving", then it is time you learn the ways of the mature and proper judgement. "Eternal Judgement" (judgement from the perspective of God) is an elementary doctrine.

I understand this.

But...

When is it appropriate to retain the sins of others?
or
To claim the Lord will repay someone for their wickedness?
or
To wish those who are troubling the saints to be victims of their own sins?

Perhaps Peter's response to Simon the Sorcerer can give us a hint:

Peter answered: “May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord in the hope that he may forgive you for having such a thought in your heart. For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin.”

If I may, proper judgement cannot come from one with a victim's mindset. That type of mind demands a recompense. Only one who understands that their lives are hidden in Christ may properly judge the offender. Such a mind seeks nothing but the truth as revealed by the Lord.

So, for the young in Christ, I say "Always forgive" so that you may not be burdened by the sins of others and become ensnared in their ways. But to the mature I say "Judge properly"; What is the Spirit saying about person? It might be more beneficial to the person if their sins are retained; hardship because of sin could prompt the offender to repent.

Some may ask "How do I know if I am young or mature in the Lord?" In this case, if you are wondering if you should forgive, or are having issues with "always forgiving", then it is time you learn the ways of the mature and proper judgement. "Eternal Judgement" (judgement from the perspective of God) is an elementary doctrine.

I understand this.

But...

When is it appropriate to retain the sins of others?
or
To claim the Lord will repay someone for their wickedness?
or
To wish those who are troubling the saints to be victims of their own sins?

Perhaps Peter's response to Simon the Sorcerer can give us a hint:

Peter answered: “May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord in the hope that he may forgive you for having such a thought in your heart. For I see that you are full of bitterness and captive to sin.”


If I may, proper judgement cannot come from one with a victim's mindset. That type of mind demands a recompense. Only one who understands that their lives are hidden in Christ may properly judge the offender. Such a mind seeks nothing but the truth as revealed by the Lord.

So, for the young in Christ, I say "Always forgive" so that you may not be burdened by the sins of others and become ensnared in their ways. But to the mature I say "Judge properly"; What is the Spirit saying about person? It might be more beneficial to the person if their sins are retained; hardship because of sin could prompt the offender to repent.

Some may ask "How do I know if I am young or mature in the Lord?" In this case, if you are wondering if you should forgive, or are having issues with "always forgiving", then it is time you learn the ways of the mature and proper judgement. "Eternal Judgement" (judgement from the perspective of God) is an elementary doctrine.

Brother he told that to one of his apostles not the general church . These men established everything all of us read about and believe that’s why he told those men that that’s not an instruction for people trying to be saved 2000 years later it’s a kingdom being conferred to his twelve chosen later to include Paul , because Jesus was going to heaven and used the apostles to spread the gospel to fulfill the great commission. He gave them judgement of the church they were commissioned to spread regarding this

even today bro in a church group the leadership are allowed to cast someone out , there’s doctrine jesus taught for this because a sinner can disrupt a whole church of they don’t have structure and rule of some kind gentle and forebearing though it is

forgivness is just the thruth from Jesus to believers of the gospel it’s also that something you do in prayer between you and God “ lord please don’t hold that against this person even if it’s hard for me you can give me strength , I forgive them to you between us and ask you’ll help them change “

We have forebearance to perform the actions if we get the spirit right firet the thought.

forgiving here is just Jesus telling us the truth of you do you can expect it but if you don’t you shouldn’t . It’s a word of faith not a written command it’s meant to impact someone who believes and needs mercy and remembers thier sins too

think of it this way of Jesus died for everyone’s sin , why would any of us want to be the one not forgiving them ?

Read Jesus teachings then read him telling Peter “ whoever’s sins ye remit they are remitted whoever sins you retain they are retained “ and remember oeter was filled with the Holy Ghost and was one of twelve men Jesus himself chose disregarding Judas. Peter would use Jesus judgements when he preached the word Is my point it’s always jesus ways not we also if we’re just a Christian commoner we don’t need to worry about a charge given an apostle

You don't make the distinction between sins involving God versus people? Peter seems to be particularly harsh towards those whose transgression is directly against God. This is true in the example you gave as well as with Annanias and Sapphira.
This seems to be the case with Jesus as well in His condemnation of the Pharisees. Yet, He asks forgiveness for those who nailed Him to the cross.

“if you are wondering if you should forgive, or are having issues with "always forgiving", then it is time you learn the ways of the mature and proper judgement. "Eternal Judgement"

or hear what Jesus said and believe him if we have any issues with it so he can change that I forgiving heart of ours maybe his word can change our issues
“Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times? Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven. Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.

( that’s why we must be merciful that’s what the kingdom is likened to this man at the end was forgiven then he didn’t realize he needed to also forgive because he doesn’t do it and look what happens to his debt that was forgiven by the ruler )

And his Lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭18:21-23, 34-35‬ ‭



Where does one learn Gods eternal judgements ?And isnt what your saying the reason Jesus commanded them to go preach the things he taught them to all creation all nations and whoever believed would be saved


“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The reason for that is because those are Gods eternal judgements the things Jesus taught I mean like “forgive and you will be forgiven forgive not and you will not be “ those things are what he means he was going around oreschong these things and then making these types of claims

“For the Father judgeth no man, but hath committed all judgment unto the Son: Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; and hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:22, 24-29‬ ‭

then after he said

“And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭28:18-20‬ ‭KJV‬‬

forgiving others is basic stuff your right but how come so many people don’t believe what Jesus the son said about it to Gods children ? Maybe no one ever said “ hey look what jesus said here when Peter one of his chief disciples asked about forgivness “

Peter knew Jesus had the answers to his inquiries

The offense cause by the coppersmith seemed directed at Paul. Yet Paul asked the Lord for his comeuppance. That’s enough for me.

Perhaps there is a distinction. I know I may forgive a sin against myself but I cannot forgive a sin against my wife, I must act. Even so, it defeats the “always forgive” doctrine. It seems, for example, that when we judge angels, they will not be forgiven but it might be merciful to send them into swine.

Correct. Although I don’t see the separation between what he told the Apostles and His call to me.

I'm apt to believe Paul would be more upset by his inability to do the work of the kingdom as opposed to personal harm. So whatever the coppersmith did, I personally think the harm was to Paul's ability to minister. I say this because Paul called himself a prisoner of the Lord. He didn't lay the charge of his imprisonment upon the religious leaders or the secular authorities.
On a personal note, I have found the source of my own reticence to forgive generally lies in my own pride. People as a lot are very offensive. Thankfully, there is no commandment to take offense.

You are called to either remit any given persons sins or hold it against them by Gods authority ?

I know you’re not saying this but God doesn’t need anyone to defend Him or His message. Certainly the coppersmith, whatever his offense, could not have prevailed against Kingdom.

Right, from God's perspective. I was speaking more concerning Paul's ability to minister.

And so are you, if you can receive it. With the intent to always restore the offender. How do you understand Matthew 18?

If they still refuse to listen, tell it to the church; and if they refuse to listen even to the church, treat them as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
18 “Truly I tell you, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

“And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” ( I feel this is a command to his chosen apostles of Israel’s tribes )
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭16:18-19‬ ‭KJV‬‬

I don’t feel myself that I’m peters equal or called to be the rock he would build his church . so I sort feel Jesus seemons to the masses is where my calling is found . Again I don’t know brother between you and the lord and can only speak for me and my thoughts.