Mike Winger's "Why I think Calvinism is Unbiblical"

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FollowerofShiloh

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No. The Bible never says that no one else was indwelt by the Spirit. It only says these persons did. By your logic, someone can make a list of the people who are recorded as having received the Spirit and conclude that's all who did. Bad logic.
Show me the passage that says only those in the above list were the only ones who received the Spirit. Then you will have something.
Meanwhile, I have shown you the impossibility of a relationship with the Father apart from Christ.
The Bible specifically says who is Spirit Filled in the Old Testament.

There went many so God plainly shows us who they are.

God mentions them specifically by NAME because there's not many of them.
 

Cameron143

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The Bible specifically says who is Spirit Filled in the Old Testament.

There went many so God plainly shows us who they are.

God mentions them specifically by NAME because there's not many of them.
This is an assumption. It is nowhere stated.
 

cv5

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The entire list of People Holy Spirit filled in the Old Testament/Mikra:

Only LEADERS and Those with Special Roles for God are filled with the Holy Spirit and the rest are ""Natural Men"" saved under the Law:

  • Joseph was filled with the Spirit of God (Genesis 41:38)
  • The craftsmen who built the tabernacle were filled with the Spirit of God (Exodus 31:3)
  • Joshua was filled with the Spirit of God (Numbers 27:18)
  • The judge Othniel was filled with the Spirit of God (Judges 3:10)
  • The judge Gideon was filled with the Spirit of God (Judges 6:34)
  • The judge Jephthah was filled with the Spirit of God (Judges 11:29)
  • The judge Samson was filled with the Spirit of God (Judges 13:5, 14:6, 14:19, 15:14)
  • Saul was filled with the Spirit of God (1 Samuel 10:9-10)
  • David was filled with the Spirit of God (1 Samuel 16:13)
  • Bezalel is "filled" with the Spirit of God to develop and execute artistic design for the Tabernacle (Exodus 31:2; 35:31).
  • The 70 Elders receive some of the Spirit of God that is on Moses (Numbers 11:17, 25).
  • Prophets prophesy when the Spirit of God comes upon them (2 Chronicles 15:1; 20:14; 24:20; Joel 2:28-29).

Everyone else was a natural man under the Law and Saved because as a natural man they chose to believe in God.
"The thing is.....the OT law (and the entire OT) IS the Spirit in a sense."

To be more precise:
"The thing is.....the OT law (and the entire OT) IS the Spirit in the world in a sense."
 

FollowerofShiloh

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This is an assumption. It is nowhere stated.
The only way to be Holy Spirit filled in those days was for a High Priest to pour oil over you and Bless you. And we see God only had that done to the Leaders. Normal Jews did not have that done. Why are you arguing? YOU literally know NOTHING about us JEWS but that some of us denied Jesus!
 

Cameron143

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The only way to be Holy Spirit filled in those days was for a High Priest to pour oil over you and Bless you. And we see God only had that happen to the Leaders. Normal Jews did not have that done. Why are you arguing? YOU literally know NOTHING about us JEWS but that some of denied Jesus!
Wow! I guess I'm just a dumb Gentile. I couldn't possibly know anything about Israel and the OT. Only Jews can know about Israel and it's history or ever be given insight by God about anything.
Could you be any more dismissive and egotistical?
 

cv5

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It definitely is a foreshadow of things to come like the Temple, Ark, Ark of the covenant, and so many things. But only specific people actually were filled with the Spirit of God, unlike today, and those under them were natural men who followed their leaders. But they were natural men and still chose to follow God.
As a touchstone, there is no reason to believe that the saved Gibeonites (book of Joshua) were all filled with the Spirit.
But.....they DID undoubtedly believe in the God of Israel. And the POSITIVE ACTIONS they urgently took were both proof of their faith and the reason for God's grace upon them.
 

FollowerofShiloh

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Wow! I guess I'm just a dumb Gentile. I couldn't possibly know anything about Israel and the OT. Only Jews can know about Israel and it's history or ever be given insight by God about anything.
Could you be any more dismissive and egotistical?
You say Elohim is plural but to us Jews it's singular.
There's a thousand more things I see Christians falsely claim about the Jews because your ignorant English translation.
 

FollowerofShiloh

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As a touchstone, there is no reason to believe that the saved Gibeonites (book of Joshua) were all filled with the Spirit.
But.....they DID undoubtedly believe in the God of Israel. And the POSITIVE ACTIONS they urgently took were both proof of their faith and the reason for God's grace upon them.
Amen Brother (y)
 

Magenta

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God shows Satan each and every time a person comes to Him freely, without compunction, that He is indeed the worthy God who is served, adored and loved freely.

Each time a person is persuaded and believes Satan is diminished and that is why the
theology you defend fall shorts, it steals God's glory as though God has to coerce His children.

The big picture is the real story and this is the story of scripture but only lightly presented but there nonetheless
Who are "His children"??? Gosh. Only those who believe. You have put the cart before the horse.

Scripture also explicitly states -in the words of Jesus no less- that nobody can come unless the Father enables them.

Of course you exclude yourself from that. You needed no help... so righteous
all on your own despite the clear teaching of Scripture to the contrary.
 

FollowerofShiloh

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I apologize Cameron.

Just gets old dealing with mistranslation the way languages other than the Hebrew itself explains it. I am just glad you believe in God.
 

Cameron143

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I apologize Cameron.

Just gets old dealing with mistranslation the way languages other than the Hebrew itself explains it. I am just glad you believe in God.
No apology is necessary. I'm not offended. But I do appreciate the gesture.
 

Mem

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There's no reason for people to stop hearing the Gospel by stopping their ears unless they want to reject what they are hearing.
Otherwise, as Paul puts it, hearing leads to believing. So if hearing leads to believing and in chapter 7 hearing leads to stopping their ears, it means the Gospel was penetrating their souls like it is supposed to do and does in every example we have in the Bible. It's also clear they were hearing and decided they wanted nothing to do with what they were hearing.

We have 5 examples of those who heard did this or that. That's more scripture than you can provide to say otherwise.
The context of 7th chapter of Acts, in general, provides examples of unbeliever's jealousy of believers. Jealousy is different from envy, nuanced from it in that it begrudges what the holder believes is rightfully his, as opposed to envy which desires to have what the other possesses....

I started this reply I don't know how many days ago, so I don't remember the point I was working toward... :unsure: but I'm sure it was relevant and might've even been helpful, somehow, so I decided to finish the post rather than just simply deleting it for having so far behind. :geek:

In Stephen's case, he looked up and claimed that He saw God... which enraged them, and they drug him out and hurled stones at him. And Stephen fell asleep, and I daresay he fell asleep like he was being tucked into a comfy bed.

So, what were these so jealous, or envious, of even though Stephen just presented them with the message that, if heard, would grant them with exactly what he possessed also? However, that Stephen, just prior to having said that He saw Jesus standing, he had just told them that they had failed to keep the law (and in their mind, this translated to "you failed to keep the law, but I have not...since I can see God and you cannot) provides some insight that they were stirred up with envy.... or perhaps both envy and jealousy, in believing Stephen 'taking' from them the righteousness they'd works so hard to project (although the effort was toward their friends' regard rather than God's).

And so, they just weren't having it because, up to that point, their peers had thought so much of them.
Yes, I'm leaning toward envy stopping up one ear and jealousy stopping up the other.
 

HeIsHere

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That sounds nice at first blush, but it doesn't take into account the reality of fallen man. Further, by making man responsible for his own salvation, you actually rob God of glory.

Now where God does get glory in the manner you suggest is exemplified in the story of Job. Job, however, was already the recipient of God's grace and Satan posited that Job only loved God because of all the things God had done for him. God was vindicated of Satan's accusation when Job continued to worship in the deepest of trials.

And your last insinuation that God coerces people has never been a part of any argument I have ever made. In fact, I believe exactly the opposite and have made that plain. When God converts a heart, that heart runs to God, and freely seeks after God. You, and a few others insist differently, but it's disingenuous on your part to assign belief to another they do not hold. You are free to disagree with my understanding, but you are not free to mischaracterize my beliefs. If you continue to do so I'll know you are just another disingenuous poster and dismiss you as such.

I was not addressing your personal beliefs per se, but just the general reformed doctrine, just adding my understanding and thoughts, gee whiz, everything is not personal to the person who posted it each and every time.

It is possible to just be speaking to the narrative even if one replies to one person.

"When God converts a heart, that heart runs to God, and freely seeks after God."

So is God converting the heart first?

If this is the order tell me does He get permission before He converts the heart.
 

HeIsHere

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Agreed!
But he has to keep aligned to his doctrine so he must make such false claims continually.

It is always this way each and every time.

The entire "framework" has been completely dismantled by apologists over and over again through textual analysis, logic and reason but it does not matter it is a huge challenge to dislodge it from people who see it in the scripture.
 

Cameron143

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I was not addressing your personal beliefs per se, but just the general reformed doctrine, just adding my understanding and thoughts, gee whiz, everything is not personal to the person who posted it each and every time.

It is possible to just be speaking to the narrative even if one replies to one person.

"When God converts a heart, that heart runs to God, and freely seeks after God."

So is God converting the heart first?

If this is the order tell me does He get permission before He converts the heart.
Why would He? Did He ask people if they wanted to be created? Whoops...would that mean God violated a person's freewill?
 

Magenta

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So are you under Moses and the law? no that was the old dispensation.

Paul recognised Israel in his day, he says that a veil covers their eyes from seeing Christ whenever Moses
is read until the veil is removed. He makes it perfectly plain that the blindness is only partial and temporary.
The Jews who are now cast away will be received ... all Israel will be saved.

2 Corinthians 3:13-15~ We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face to keep the Israelites from gazing at the end of what was fading away. But their minds were closed. For to this day the same veil remains at the reading of the old covenant. It has not been lifted, because only in Christ can it be removed. And even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts. But whenever anyone turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.:)
 

HeIsHere

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Why would He? Did He ask people if they wanted to be created? Whoops...would that mean God violated a person's freewill?
Wow.
It has nothing to do with free will, it is the character of God that is misrepresented completely.

I stick with my first blush, because no where does Jesus state "I will bequeath some of you with metanoia"
This idea has to be stitched and sewn, like a poorly made, ill fitting garment, over top of the text.