Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

So, where are we at in this?

I can only imagine the experiential effects of a circumcision, but I suppose it has to do with an enhanced sensitivity toward the 'air.' And even though the people were circumcised, their heart remained dull toward the true spirit of God evidenced by their display of doubt that God actually cared for them, asking Moses, "why have you brought us out just to die here in the desert?" I can sympathize with them having come from that mindset, "if God loved me, then he'd do that, and then wouldn't let them do this, and my ice cream wouldn't have melted and I have nothing" and am still a work in progress toward, "God loves me, even though I'd done that, and then wouldn't let him do this, and my ice cream melted...because He owns the cattle on a thousand hills..." But scripture promises their fullness as much as that of the Gentiles, and that this will only result in greater riches for the gentiles. And I truly believe I'm witnessing a bud from the tree in such as you and can't help but anticipate its full bloom!

#re: the greater riches of which I consider to be the treasure of a deeper the understanding of the Torah (down to every jot and tittle of it), in its relevance to the Messiah, Who shall return all in all to the Father.

I agree. And God always intercedes in the lives of His elect, such as Abraham and Noah and Moses and Jeremiah and Paul. —As you know, even though I certainly believe in election, I‘m not at all sure about TULIP. Thanks, Ruf.

26 And the LORD spoke unto Moses and unto Aaron, saying:

27 'How long shall I bear with this evil congregation, that keep murmuring against Me? I have heard the murmurings of the children of Israel, which they keep murmuring against Me.

28 Say unto them: As I live, saith the LORD, surely as ye have spoken in Mine ears, so will I do to you:

29 your carcasses shall fall in this wilderness, and all that were numbered of you, according to your whole number, from twenty years old and upward, ye that have murmured against Me;

30 surely ye shall not come into the land, concerning which I lifted up My hand that I would make you dwell therein, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun.

31 But your little ones, that ye said would be a prey, them will I bring in, and they shall know the land which ye have rejected.

32 But as for you, your carcasses shall fall in this wilderness.

33 And your children shall be wanderers in the wilderness forty years, and shall bear your strayings, until your carcasses be consumed in the wilderness.


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39 And Moses told these words unto all the children of Israel; and the people mourned greatly.

40 And they rose up early in the morning, and got them up to the top of the mountain, saying: 'Lo, we are here, and will go up unto the place which the LORD hath promised; for we have sinned.'

41 And Moses said: 'Wherefore now do ye transgress the commandment of the LORD, seeing it shall not prosper?

42 Go not up, for the LORD is not among you; that ye be not smitten down before your enemies.

43 For there the Amalekite and the Canaanite are before you, and ye shall fall by the sword; forasmuch as ye are turned back from following the LORD, and the LORD will not be with you.'

44 But they presumed to go up to the top of the mountain; nevertheless the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and Moses, departed not out of the camp.

45 Then the Amalekite and the Canaanite, who dwelt in that hill-country, came down, and smote them and beat them down, even unto Hormah


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Moses told them the LORD is not among you + You turned back from following the LORD and the LORD will not be with you

Then they were smoted and beat down destroyed.

They were truly Back Sliders and without God and God killed them.

The real irony here is God was keeping His Promise and Covenant to Abraham but the people were revolting against God. And God took their Offspring ages 20 and younger and fulfilled His Promise but the rest were destroyed and without God like true Back Sliders.

You charged me with a severe spiritual condition. Where are we at regarding that charge?

It is all so strange that Christians would treat each other this way. Particularly when scripture is abundantly clear that those who are abusive, they couldn't possibly belong to the father.

I find it very interesting that rarely do we ever encounter such abusive people within the church. That's not to say that they don't exist, for I've had a man about 160 years old step up about 2 in from my face and put his finger in my chest. But by and large, this Behavior does not happen within a church building, at least not on a weekly basis, as it is done at Christian Forums on a moment by moment basis.

If there's one thing that we can count on from Christian forums, is that there will be an active fight amongst Christians. I wonder why this is? Why is this Behavior allowed? Does it have something to do with donations? After all, if all argumentative and disruptive people were to be rejected, with the ownership make as much money?

And please pardon my typos, I'm voice texting which isn't always the most effective.

Those verses are clear those who were not allowed into the Promised Land were without God [per Moses].
So they died without God in their life.

The charge was do you still believe like the other poster they were saved, because God's Sovereignty could never allow losses...even though...those verses spell it out that He did allow it?

The charge was that I was not reformed like this said other poster.

I guess it doesn't matter. I've already given my answer which was clearly no, they weren't saved. However, I offered the scripture that shows that God was fair and just and would give them an opportunity to be saved. As Paul said, the law was a protective, umbrella like Guardian that would last until the day of christ.

Hey, at least I was pretty excited for about 45 minutes there. Oh well, better than nothing I suppose.

His children are Elect.

I 'm having difficulty seeing your point.
Is it salvation all Jesus? Or Jesus plus confessing correct doctrine?

I'd categorize them as idolaters rather than back sliders. But then I'm not sure I have a sure grasp of what exactly constitutes a backslider. As I see it, an idolater does not love God with all he's got, and a backslider is similar but more like an adulterer in he might love God but has a tendency to keep longing for other gods. I guess either way, these have missed.

Is salvation all about trusting Jesus? or trusting Jesus and trusting some man's interpretation of Jesus' words?

Free will is not a claim that we cannot be forced to behave against our will. You are confusing free will with omnipotence.

Will is the desire behind actions. That is what "thelO" means. Having free will means that when someone wants to force us to do something against our will, the cannot make us stop willing not to do it. Doing something against your will means your will is free. If someone were able directly to manipulate your desires, without persuading you to want something different, so that they make you want to do something that you did not previously want to do, by unilaterally changing your desire, then they will have violated your free will. God does not violate free will. He can force people to do things they do not want to do.

Who among the non-reformed are making that claim? God often moves against people's moral agency in scripture. Jonah for one. Pharaoh for another. I suspect you are not listening to what people are actually saying, but rather are merely repeating accusations you have read or heard against non-reformed believers. Can you give an example of non-reformed believers complaining that "God would be violating the sanctity and integrity of a person's free moral agency if He ever sovereignly moved against that moral agency" ?

That's the strategy.