Did Jesus Die on The Cross for The Just/Elect/Saved Whose Names Are Written in The Book of Life OR

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PaulThomson

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Rufus said:
Huh? :confused: Well, God has given many the gifts of faith and repentance, so how does that make him "angry at himself"?

Heb 2:10-11
10 In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting that God, for whom and through whom everything exists, should make the author of their salvation perfect through suffering. 11 Both the one who makes men holy and those who are made holy are of the same family. So Jesus is not ashamed to call them brothers.
NIV
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If God is angry that people will not believe in Him, despite His giving them such evidence that they are without excuse for not believing in Him, and the reason they will not believe is because God has deliberately withheld repentance and faith from them, God is angry at His own actions.
 
Genez

Genez

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Rufus said:
(cut to save space)

If you were more self-aware of your proclivity for long-winded fluff posts, you'd be apologizing instead for causing the possible death of some poor, unsuspecting reader due to acute boredom. But the good news is that your posts have given me an idea that they might well be useful for curing chronic cases of insomnia. I'm thinking of shipping some of your tomes off to John Hopkins or some other medical research facility so doctors can perform controlled lab tests. I might actually get rich off of you. :LOL:

What follows is my short list that speaks to the conspicuous presence of the Holy Spirit in the OT, and most particularly to the prominent historical role He played in in the lives of God's covenant people. This list is by no means exhaustive but it serves the purpose to prove that the Holy Spirit was most assuredly "with" God's chosen covenant people in the same way he was with Christ's disciples prior to the Cross and Pentecost.

Moreover, it's clear that Jesus considered John the Baptist to be the greatest among the OT prophets. Who else could Jesus have been implicitly comparing him to after the 400+ silent years that extended from Malachi to Christ's first advent (Lk 7:26-28)?

And what's with the inane question you asked about Judas, as though he presented some kind of problem? If you knew your bible, you'd know that the Spirit of the Lord in the OT was not necessarily given as a permanent influence to God's OC people, as He is to His NC people. Since Judas betrayed Christ, became possessed by the devil and hanged himself all prior to the Cross, then the Spirit very likely departed from him to make way for Satan's influence -- following the OT pattern. "Problem" solved! :rolleyes: Below is the list.

1. Spirit Breathed Life into Adam (Gen 2:7)

2. The Spirit Departed from Adam (logically inferred) on the day he sinned and died spiritually (Gen 2:17)

3. The Spirit was recognized and acknowledged by men (Gen 41:38)

4. The Spirit Strove with Sinners (Gen 6:3)

5. The Spirit Gave Special Ability to Select Individuals (Ex 31:1-3; 35:30-31)

6. The Spirit Came Upon Israel's 70 Elders (Num 11:25-29)

7. The Spirit Gave Extraordinary Powers to God's Leaders, Prophets and Judges (Josha, cp Num 27:18; Othniel, Judg 3:9-10; Gideon, Jud 6:34; Jephthah, Jud 11:29; Samson, Jud 14:5-6; Saul, 1Sam 10:9-13)

8. The Spirit Departed from Disobedient Saul (1Sam 16:14)

9. The Spirit Departed from Unfaithful Samson (Jud 16:20)

10. The Spirit Protected David from king Saul (1Sam 19:20-21)

11. The Spirit Inspired King David (2Sam 23:2)

12. The Spirit Came Upon David's Mighty Men (1Chron 12:18)

13. The (S)pirit of Elijah was given to his Successor Elisha (2Ki 2:9-15).

14. King David Prayed that the Spirit not be Taken from Him (Ps 51:11)

15. The Spirit Guided the Prophets (Ezek 2:2)

16. The Spirit Inspired Holiness (Ps 143:10)

17. The Spirit Instructed God's Covenant People (Neh 9:20)

18. As Water is Poured out on Thirsty Ground, so God Poured his Spirit out on Israel's Offspring (Isa 44:1-3).

19. The Spirit was Grieved by God's Covenant people (Isa 63:10)

20. The Spirit Guided His Covenant People Into the Promised Land (Isa 63:11-14)

21. The Spirit was Among the Post-Babylonian Exiles who Rebuilt the Temple (Hag 2:3-5)

22. The Spirit Came Upon Zechariah (2Chron24:20)

23. The Lord Promised Zerubbabel Victory Over His Enemies by His Spirit (Zech 4:6)

24. The Spirit was "WITH" John the Baptist in a Very Special Way even Before Birth (Lk 1:15)

25. John the Baptist also had Elihah's "(S)pirit and Power" (Lk 1:17)

26. The Spirit, too, was "WITH" Elizabeth (Lk 1:41)

27. The Spirit Lived With Christ's Disciples (Jn 14:17)

Now that you think you have mastered Koine Greek, I would suggest that you make becoming acquainted with the bible your next mission in life. No reasonable person can deduce from the OT that the Holy Spirit didn't play a very significant role in the lives of God's covenant people -- being "with" them every step of the way right up to the Cross and Pentecost.
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You can't grasp what he said....

So you, ahhh...

Have to say something offensive as a defensive on your part to try to make your inferior way of thinking feeling protected.


Here you go:

If you were more self-aware of your proclivity for long-winded fluff posts, you'd be apologizing instead for causing the possible death of some poor, unsuspecting reader due to acute boredom.

I understood what he said. You did not.

I also understand you lack the capacity for learning anything that demands you stretch your limited capacities to grow.
He makes you feel inferior. It threatens your ego.
Yet, grace would you lift you up if the Spirit were truly enabling you...

What spirit you follow? I do not know. But I know its not the Holy Spirit.
For, the Holy Spirit is not arrogant...

And, be careful. For its why the Lord will be telling some hot shots in the future "I never knew you" after they boast about what great believers they thought they were.


Matthew 7:21-23​
​
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, ​
but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. ​
On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, ​
and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ ​
And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers ​
of lawlessness.’​


They thought they were real hot shots for the Lord.....

So, you better be careful when you feel free to be arrogant towards other believers.

In Christ....
 
Hakawaka

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Rufus said:
The how come this Universal High Priest for "BOTH groups" didn't pray for both in John 17? He died for all, but isn't the High Priest for all?

And the "everyone" in in Heb 2:9 is qualified by the "many sons" he is bringing to glory in the next verse.
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Atonement is not a guarantee of salvation. I know the reformed believe it is, hence they always accuse us of being universalists if we were consistent. Allow me to show you why I and most of Christendom throughout history have said that while Jesus atoned for the sins of the world, salvation of every single human being does not necessarily follow.

Leviticus 23:28-30 On this day you are not to do any work, for it is the Day of Atonement, when atonement is made for you before the LORD your God. If anyone does not humble himself on this day, he must be cut off from his people.
I will destroy from among their people anyone who does any work on that day.

I highlighted the atonement in red, as you can see atonement is made for the entire nation of Israel.
I highlighted the responsibility of man in blue, as you can see if one did not humble themselves on that day of atonement, they would be cut from the people. That would mean the atonement made for them is of no effect.

I will show you another example from the New Testament and there are many!:

2 Corinthians 5:19-20
that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God.

Again I highlighted the atonement in red, Christ has died for the sins of the WORLD, including the false prophets (2 Peter 2:1). However in the very next verse Paul implores these people to be reconciled to God, which I highlighted in blue. But wait? I thought the whole world was already reconciled in the previous verse? What need is there for anyone to be reconciled anymore? Why does Paul implore them to BE reconciled? I will tell you why, its because its just like the atonement I quoted from Leviticus, which was a shadow of the sacrifice of Christ. The atonement was MADE for the whole world, BUT if there is no faith and repentance, that atonement will not be applied to you.

To put it in an illustration for the sake of the readers who are new Christians who might find the talk of atonement confusing:
Think of a sign that says: "Free water for everyone on 3rd street" The water has been provided for everyone, but if you don't go to 3rd street and pick up the water, it will be of no use to you!
 
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studier

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Rufus said:
The Spirit Lived With Christ's Disciples (Jn 14:17)
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Thanks for the list. There are several of them on the internet these days. The one you drew from seems to agree with what I showed from running through John 14:17 and close surrounding verses. I'd change the list you drew from to "Christ's twelve Apostles" to stay tighter to the Text.

You could have found this list and drew from what you copied when I asked you who John 14:17 was speaking of. You also could have followed the schooling in hermeneutics you were giving someone else earlier in this thread re: original audience.

A suggestion for you; no one has to read what anyone else writes here. Some are raised in very detailed exegetical teaching and thrive on it. I'm not remotely posting that level of detail here.

You're correct that many do not like any detail in learning Scripture. That's one of the reasons we have so many today who have been taught various demoninational (misspelled that one!) systems. There were men foreseeing this problem at minimum over a century ago (let alone in our Text). And in our day we can also see the real fallout of this in assemblies that don't teach much of anything but do like music and plays and social events.

One of the things men I know have been trying for the last generation+ to save is the continuing of educating pastors and teachers in the languages of Scripture so we have men still able to continue their own research in and teaching from the actual Text by the Spirit. Some of the major seminaries have been dropping language instruction for some time now. FWIW, there are churches today that when seeking a pastor put in their resume requests qualifications for guitar playing.

Now that you've listed some basic Pneumatology, do you still think all of mankind throughout all of history were "God haters" who rejected what they knew of God? Don't you see that there was always some concept of a remnant?
 
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studier

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Hakawaka said:
If anyone does not humble himself on this day, he must be cut off from his people
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Hakawaka said:
Now then, we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us: we implore you on Christ’s behalf, be reconciled to God.
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Just repeating the human side of this.

Nicely stated.
 
HeIsHere

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Cameron143 said:
Context isn't the only consideration to understanding the meaning of scripture. The understanding of language, how God makes use of language, figurative language, and revelation also have to be considered. Try understanding the book of Revelation with context alone.
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All of those things are context.
 
HeIsHere

HeIsHere

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PaulThomson said:
If God is angry that people will not believe in Him, despite His giving them such evidence that they are without excuse for not believing in Him, and the reason they will not believe is because God has deliberately withheld repentance and faith from them, God is angry at His own actions.
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As someone once stated, doctrine of divine malevolence – trying to masquerade itself as a doctrine of divine benevolence.
 
HeIsHere

HeIsHere

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Cameron143 said:
You continue to make assumptions about what I write. I never said the gospel is gibberish. I, in fact, said the opposite. But man is born from above by water and the Spirit. The water is the gospel. But the word of God isn't working alone in salvation. The Spirit is present and working also.
So yes, I do believe God helps or enables those who come to faith in Jesus Christ.
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In summary then God enables some and does not enable others when He could enable all who hear the Gospel.
So ultimately then it is on God who is saved and who is not?

See people like @Rufus, @MerSee, @rogerg and @maxamir would agree yes God decides who He enables and who He does not, I am not really sure where you stand.

Now they also believe God does not fail (which I would absolutely agree) based on revelation not that it is required for a system to be cohesive.

Just want to be clear here, not using any high rhetoric this time.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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HeIsHere said:
In summary then God enables some and does not enable others when He could enable all who hear the Gospel.
So ultimately then it is on God who is saved and who is not?

See people like @Rufus, @MerSee, @rogerg and @maxamir would agree yes God decides who He enables and who He does not, I am not really sure where you stand.

Now they also believe God does not fail (which I would absolutely agree) based on revelation not that it is required for a system to be cohesive.

Just want to be clear here, not using any high rhetoric this time.
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Salvation has always been of the Lord.

Do you have problem with the fact that throughout the OT that God chose Israel to have as a people to the exclusion of every other nation?

You still never answered my other question: what do you make of the fact that large numbers of people throughout history were born, lived, and died without ever hearing the Gospel or hearing about Jesus?
 
HeIsHere

HeIsHere

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Cameron143 said:
Salvation has always been of the Lord.

Do you have problem with the fact that throughout the OT that God chose Israel to have as a people to the exclusion of every other nation?

You still never answered my other question: what do you make of the fact that large numbers of people throughout history were born, lived, and died without ever hearing the Gospel or hearing about Jesus?
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LOL :LOL:

You are funny!!!

I said those who Hear the Gospel. You can stand with your buddies, it is okay.
But I do think Israel was chosen not for salvation for only itself but as a light to the rest of the world.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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HeIsHere said:
LOL :LOL:

You are funny!!!

I said those who Hear the Gospel. You can stand with your buddies, it is okay.
But I do think Israel was chosen not for salvation for only itself but as a light to the rest of the world.
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There is much to be learned from how God has done things...especially in the formation of the nation Israel. A people that didn't exist was formed by God Himself. To them almost exclusively did He make Himself personally known.

Since Jesus is the light of the world, how could they be a light apart from Him? Salvation is requisite to be a light.
 
HeIsHere

HeIsHere

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Cameron143 said:
There is much to be learned from how God has done things...especially in the formation of the nation Israel. A people that didn't exist was formed by God Himself. To them almost exclusively did He make Himself personally known.

Since Jesus is the light of the world, how could they be a light apart from Him? Salvation is requisite to be a light.
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And they were supposed to pay it forward, be a light to the Gentiles.

Anyway, you have to admit in your soteriology that from those who hear the Gospel God only enables some.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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HeIsHere said:
And they were supposed to pay it forward, be a light to the Gentiles.

Anyway, you have to admit in your soteriology that from those who hear the Gospel God only enables some.
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I know that God chooses some and not all. Not even all of Israel is of Israel. And large numbers of various people groups throughout the church age have never heard the Gospel or about Christ. You have conveniently continued to ignore this reality. Do you suppose God created them and simply forgot about them?
 
HeIsHere

HeIsHere

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Cameron143 said:
I know that God chooses some and not all. Not even all of Israel is of Israel. And large numbers of various people groups throughout the church age have never heard the Gospel or about Christ. You have conveniently continued to ignore this reality. Do you suppose God created them and simply forgot about them?
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Nope I would never forget about them but you have already told me they are already born to eternal damnation (not my view).

Well, right now were are talking about those who hear the Gospel.

I am sure there have been many, many alter calls, crusades, preaching of the Gospel (not Jesus take the wheel, or give your life to Christ, or repent of your sin) but a real presentation of the full Gospel, and God decided to leave some in the audience in their sin for all their lives, didn't enable them, left them as slaves to sin, no way out from the bondage they created for themselves.

As you say, "it's all good" but you should dig a bit deeper you may yet be able to reconcile this gap, based on the true character of God and the fact He does not fail. :)
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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HeIsHere said:
Nope I would never forget about them but you have already told me they are already born to eternal damnation (not my view).

Well, right now were are talking about those who hear the Gospel.

I am sure there have been many, many alter calls, crusades, preaching of the Gospel (not Jesus take the wheel, or give your life to Christ, or repent of your sin) but a real presentation of the full Gospel, and God decided to leave some in the audience in their sin for all their lives, didn't enable them, left them as slaves to sin, no way out from the bondage they created for themselves.

As you say, "it's all good" but you should dig a bit deeper you may yet be able to reconcile this gap, based on the true character of God and the fact He does not fail. :)
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I never said they were created for damnation. If you are going to make such a statement, show me where I made such a statement. Either retract this statement or show it. What I have said is that men fit themselves for destruction.

And the topic is salvation. That engenders all of mankind and all of history. I can easily reconcile my position both from scripture and reality. You cannot. You are correct that God never fails, but your understanding of the character of God is only partial. God tells us in Isaiah 55:11 that His word always accomplishes the purpose it was sent forth to achieve. Yet when it goes forth it doesn't always lead to salvation. So either God lied, or there is more than one purpose for the word of God to go forth. Perhaps you will share what other reasons God has for sending forth His word.
 
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PaulThomson

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Cameron143 said:
Salvation has always been of the Lord.

Do you have problem with the fact that throughout the OT that God chose Israel to have as a people to the exclusion of every other nation?

You still never answered my other question: what do you make of the fact that large numbers of people throughout history were born, lived, and died without ever hearing the Gospel or hearing about Jesus?
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People don't have to hear the gospel to be saved. They do need to hear the gospel to know for sure that they are saved. Hence, it is not a problem for those who do not embrace your unbiblical presuppositions,. but simply stick to and accept what the Bible says.

The gospel offers assurance of salvation.
 
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