What to do in church meetings Protestant Tradition v. Scripture

You have twelve apostles but the scripture names two others directly.

James the Lord's brother and Paul.

The Greek uses the word 'apostolos' but not 'messenger'.

There may be more apostles than the fourteen mentioned. If you alter
messenger back into the Greek 'apostolos'.

There are authentic apostles today as there always have been.

Have you seen the prophets in the Old Testament?

1 Corinthians 4:20
For the kingdom of God is not in words, but in power.


As for miracle workers, what about Elijah?

Has the Lord ever warned you in the Spirit?

Has the Lord ever spoken to you in the Spirit?

The Holy Spirit will teach you all things?

They don't read the Greek so how would they know?

The Apostles I grew up with, (they call them Ps. as well) Apostle Rowe, Apostle Gardiner, Apostle Hewitt, Apostle McCabe, and others who came from England, Scotland and Wales. If you went to an Apostolic Church, (origin from Wales & not the NAR) you would see present day Apostles.

Of course they are all through the Body of Christ. I would say Watchman Nee was, and other great men of God who handled the word correctly and exhibited a marked degree of Christ-likeness.

About Watchman Nee:

https://www.apologeticsindex.org/2694-watching-out-for-watchman-nee

He was off beam on alot of things

So was the Apostle Peter.

Not a fair comparison there. But letting the bible interpret itself and following God as per His Word led by the Holy Spirit is obviously the best way.. and Watchman Nee had done a lot of off scripture practices.

We would learn from their mistakes.. both Watchman Nee's and Peter's mistakes. So it's true we don't throw out everything Watchman Nee taught. But Peter and Watchman Nee are in very different settings.

Sure you and others called them apostles. But based on biblical criteria, they were either evangelists, pastors, or teachers.

The word "apostle" in the NT has a very specific meaning and can only be to "the twelve apostles of the Lamb". And the Bible does NOT contradict itself. Indeed Christ said that the twelve apostles would sit on twelve thrones ruling the twelve tribes of Israel (Judas excluded). Twelve is the number of divine government.

That automatically excludes anyone from calling themselves an apostle (unless they are false apostles). At first the twelve were "disciples" and then they were appointed as apostles.

James is called an apostle indirectly because he was closely associated with the apostles (like Barnabas) But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother. (Gal 1:9) He was probably the chief elder in the Jerusalem church (Acts 15 speaks of apostles and elders). But Paul was chosen to be an apostle from his mother's womb. So there are no "fourteen apostles".

Nehemiah6 said:

James is called an apostle indirectly because he was closely associated with the apostles (like Barnabas)

Click to expand...

But then you quote the scripture that calls James the Lord's brother an apostle.

But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother. (Gal 1:9)

Would you recommend we take your opinion of it or the plain meaning of scripture?

Also, 1 Thessalonians includes Silvanus and Timothy as apostles.

"Nor did we seek glory from men, either from you or from others, when we might have made demands as apostles of Christ."

At least try to be consistent with your doctrinal reasoning.

I suppose this is what traditions of men do: they make others repeat what they were taught without considering the content.

Instead, you should ask the question: "why were there more than 12 named?" And perhaps, "Why were 12 needed in the first place?" "Why wasn't 11 enough at the time Peter arose to speak?"

Another, "Why does Paul, himself, acknowledge 'the twelve' if he was a member already?"

"..and that He (Christ) was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve."

Here, Paul counted Matthias among "the twelve" (unlike other "biblical scholars" who know better than Paul (I guess)). Paul gives this fact as evidence for the truth of the gospel.

According to Acts 14:14, there were at least 14 apostles. Ironic isn't it. See also Acts 14:4.

(Well, 15 at this point).

The plain meaning of Scripture was already given but I will repeat it for everyone's benefit:
I. And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him. (Mt 10:1-4) [Judas was replaced by Paul: Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, (Rom 1:1)]

II. And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. (Rev 21:14) It could not get any plainer.

III. . And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Mt 19:28)

IV. Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, (1 Cor 1:1) ["to be" is in italics since the Greek simply "Paul an apostle of Jesus Christ]

V. James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. [James -- the half-brother of Christ -- does not call himself an apostle]

VI. Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called: (Jude 1:1) [Neither does Jude]

Some like James were called "apostle" by being closely associated with the apostles in their ministry. But the plain Scriptures tell us exactly what we need to know.

It's true to say "There are only 12 apostles of the Lamb". They were eyewitnesses of Jesus' life, ministry, death, and resurrection. So, when they stood with Peter to address the Jewish crowd, 12 men, old enough to give a witness according to Jewish law, attested to the account Peter gave.

Funny you don't count James but Paul does.

Even if Paul replaced Matthias (which he didn't) you're missing Silvanus, Timothy, Barnabas, and James.

Math is hard.

Instead of making pronouncements, why don't you look up what you are talking about. The Athenian government called government delegates it sent out 'Apostles' back during their days of dominating other cities.

The word had a meaning BEFORE it showed up in the New Testament. Apostle means sent one, emissary, delegate, or something along those lines.

There were Twelve apostles. Paul was not one of them, but he was an apostle. Barnabas was not one of the Twelve, but he was an apostle. Silas, Timothy, and Apollos were not members of the Twelve either.

We are agreed here. The contradiction is in your mind not in the text of scripture.

That's fine. But it is not logical or rationale to see that as a contradict to Paul, Barnabas, Silas, Timothy, and Apollos being apostles.

You just excluded Paul as an apostle?

"They were eyewitnesses of Jesus' life, ministry, death, and resurrection."

Paul never walked with Jesus during the ministry of Jesus.

Paul was not an eyewitness of the life of Jesus, his death or resurrection.

Paul only saw Jesus after His resurrection and the last to do so.

Here is what you claimed.

[Judas was replaced by Paul: Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, (Rom 1:1)]

That is incorrect and the text from Acts given below directly contradicts what you stated.

Acts 1:24-26
And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all people, show which
one of these two You have chosen to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which
Judas turned aside to go to his own place.” And they drew lots for them, and the lot fell
to Matthias; and he was added to the eleven apostles.

Why are you ignoring what the text clearly states?

Knowledge and prophecy would indeed cease when the perfect comes.

1 Corinthians 13:9
For we know in part and prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away with.

There are two ministries mentioned above.

Knowledge and prophecy.

So when the canon of scripture was established then knowledge was done away with?

Where do you get that? Paul was an apostle, but he wasn't one of the Twelve... according to his own words in I Corinthians 15.

The 12 were to witness to Israel, the other Apostles were given after the Lord`s ascension and are for the Body of Christ to help bring them to maturity in Christ.

The Twelve were sent to the nations, also, before the ascension.