What to do in church meetings Protestant Tradition v. Scripture

[Inquisitor]

I am still waiting for you and Marilyn (or others) to give us CONCRETE examples of apostles and prophets today. Names, dates, prophecies, and whether they are simply rehashes of what is already in the Bible, or genuine revelations.

Accusing Cessationists but failing to prove your point means that you have no evidence.
But we have our evidence, and it is the COMPLETE Word of God, with the apostles and prophets within its pages. If you cannot be satisfied with this, then you are the one with a problem. We do not need new revelations, since God has given us all that we need. And the apostle-prophet John made that abundantly clear, while Paul said that prophecies would indeed cease.

You have twelve apostles but the scripture names two others directly.

James the Lord's brother and Paul.

The Greek uses the word 'apostolos' but not 'messenger'.

There may be more apostles than the fourteen mentioned. If you alter
messenger back into the Greek 'apostolos'.

There are authentic apostles today as there always have been.

Have you seen the prophets in the Old Testament?

1 Corinthians 4:20
For the kingdom of God is not in words, but in power.


As for miracle workers, what about Elijah?

Has the Lord ever warned you in the Spirit?

Has the Lord ever spoken to you in the Spirit?

The Holy Spirit will teach you all things?

 

[Inquisitor]

The Acts 1: 21 & 22 qualifications were ONLY for the 12 Apostles of the Lamb, (for Israel). They were to witness to Israel of the Lord and Christ. (Acts 2; 36)

The other Apostles were given when Christ ascended to the Father and are for the building up of the Body of Christ. The 5 fold ministries are of Christ`s Headship and certainly needed till we come to full maturity as a Body in Christ. (Eph. 4: 11 - 13)

There were many Apostles in the early Body of Christ -

APOSTLES GIVEN AFTER CHRIST`S ASCENSION.

Apostle Paul -
`Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,...` (2 Cor. 1; 1)

Apostle Silvanus -
`Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy....as apostles of Christ....` (1 Thess. 1: 1 & 2: 6)

Apostle Timothy -
`Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy....as apostles of Christ....` (1 Thess. 1: 1 & 2: 6)

Apostle Andronicus -
`Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who were in Christ before me.` (Rom. 16: 7)

Apostle Junia -
Greet Andronicus and Junia, my kinsmen and fellow prisoners, who are of note among the apostles, who were in Christ before me.` (Rom. 16: 7)

Apostle James - (The Lord`s brother, not James the son of Zebedee, Matt. 10: 2)
`But I saw none of the other apostles except James, the Lord`s brother.` (Gal. 1: 19)

Apostle Epaphroditus - ( messenger is Gk. word `apostolos` meaning Apostle.)
`Yet I considered it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus, my brother, fellow worker and fellow soldier, but your messenger, (apostolos/apostle) ...` (Phil. 2: 25)

Apostle Titus - (He does the work of an Apostle.)
`For this reason I left you in Crete, that you should set in order the things that are lacking, and appoint elders in every city as I commanded you - ` (Titus 1:

They don't read the Greek so how would they know?

 

[Marilyn]

I am still waiting for you and Marilyn (or others) to give us CONCRETE examples of apostles and prophets today. Names, dates, prophecies, and whether they are simply rehashes of what is already in the Bible, or genuine revelations.

Accusing Cessationists but failing to prove your point means that you have no evidence.
But we have our evidence, and it is the COMPLETE Word of God, with the apostles and prophets within its pages. If you cannot be satisfied with this, then you are the one with a problem. We do not need new revelations, since God has given us all that we need. And the apostle-prophet John made that abundantly clear, while Paul said that prophecies would indeed cease.

The Apostles I grew up with, (they call them Ps. as well) Apostle Rowe, Apostle Gardiner, Apostle Hewitt, Apostle McCabe, and others who came from England, Scotland and Wales. If you went to an Apostolic Church, (origin from Wales & not the NAR) you would see present day Apostles.

Of course they are all through the Body of Christ. I would say Watchman Nee was, and other great men of God who handled the word correctly and exhibited a marked degree of Christ-likeness.

 

[wattie]

The Apostles I grew up with, (they call them Ps. as well) Apostle Rowe, Apostle Gardiner, Apostle Hewitt, Apostle McCabe, and others who came from England, Scotland and Wales. If you went to an Apostolic Church, (origin from Wales & not the NAR) you would see present day Apostles.

Of course they are all through the Body of Christ. I would say Watchman Nee was, and other great men of God who handled the word correctly and exhibited a marked degree of Christ-likeness.

About Watchman Nee:

https://www.apologeticsindex.org/2694-watching-out-for-watchman-nee

He was off beam on alot of things

 

[Marilyn]

About Watchman Nee:

https://www.apologeticsindex.org/2694-watching-out-for-watchman-nee

He was off beam on alot of things

So was the Apostle Peter.

 

[wattie]

So was the Apostle Peter.

Not a fair comparison there. But letting the bible interpret itself and following God as per His Word led by the Holy Spirit is obviously the best way.. and Watchman Nee had done a lot of off scripture practices.

We would learn from their mistakes.. both Watchman Nee's and Peter's mistakes. So it's true we don't throw out everything Watchman Nee taught. But Peter and Watchman Nee are in very different settings.

 

[Nehemiah6]

The Apostles I grew up with, (they call them Ps. as well) Apostle Rowe, Apostle Gardiner, Apostle Hewitt, Apostle McCabe, and others who came from England, Scotland and Wales. If you went to an Apostolic Church, (origin from Wales & not the NAR) you would see present day Apostles.

Sure you and others called them apostles. But based on biblical criteria, they were either evangelists, pastors, or teachers.

The word "apostle" in the NT has a very specific meaning and can only be to "the twelve apostles of the Lamb". And the Bible does NOT contradict itself. Indeed Christ said that the twelve apostles would sit on twelve thrones ruling the twelve tribes of Israel (Judas excluded). Twelve is the number of divine government.

That automatically excludes anyone from calling themselves an apostle (unless they are false apostles). At first the twelve were "disciples" and then they were appointed as apostles.

 

[Nehemiah6]

James the Lord's brother and Paul.

James is called an apostle indirectly because he was closely associated with the apostles (like Barnabas) But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother. (Gal 1:9) He was probably the chief elder in the Jerusalem church (Acts 15 speaks of apostles and elders). But Paul was chosen to be an apostle from his mother's womb. So there are no "fourteen apostles".

 

[Aaron56]

That automatically excludes anyone from calling themselves an apostle.

James is called an apostle indirectly because he was closely associated with the apostles (like Barnabas)

But then you quote the scripture that calls James the Lord's brother an apostle.

But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother. (Gal 1:9)

Would you recommend we take your opinion of it or the plain meaning of scripture?

Also, 1 Thessalonians includes Silvanus and Timothy as apostles.

"Nor did we seek glory from men, either from you or from others, when we might have made demands as apostles of Christ."

At least try to be consistent with your doctrinal reasoning.

I suppose this is what traditions of men do: they make others repeat what they were taught without considering the content.

Instead, you should ask the question: "why were there more than 12 named?" And perhaps, "Why were 12 needed in the first place?" "Why wasn't 11 enough at the time Peter arose to speak?"

Another, "Why does Paul, himself, acknowledge 'the twelve' if he was a member already?"

"..and that He (Christ) was seen by Cephas, then by the twelve."

Here, Paul counted Matthias among "the twelve" (unlike other "biblical scholars" who know better than Paul (I guess)). Paul gives this fact as evidence for the truth of the gospel.

 

[presidente]

James is called an apostle indirectly because he was closely associated with the apostles (like Barnabas) But other of the apostles saw I none, save James the Lord's brother. (Gal 1:9) He was probably the chief elder in the Jerusalem church (Acts 15 speaks of apostles and elders). But Paul was chosen to be an apostle from his mother's womb. So there are no "fourteen apostles".

According to Acts 14:14, there were at least 14 apostles. Ironic isn't it. See also Acts 14:4.

(Well, 15 at this point).

 

[Nehemiah6]

Would you recommend we take your opinion of it or the plain meaning of scripture?

The plain meaning of Scripture was already given but I will repeat it for everyone's benefit:
I. And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him. (Mt 10:1-4) [Judas was replaced by Paul: Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, (Rom 1:1)]

II. And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. (Rev 21:14) It could not get any plainer.

III. . And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Mt 19:28)

IV. Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, (1 Cor 1:1) ["to be" is in italics since the Greek simply "Paul an apostle of Jesus Christ]

V. James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. [James -- the half-brother of Christ -- does not call himself an apostle]

VI. Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called: (Jude 1:1) [Neither does Jude]

Some like James were called "apostle" by being closely associated with the apostles in their ministry. But the plain Scriptures tell us exactly what we need to know.

 

[Aaron56]

According to Acts 14:14, there were at least 14 apostles. Ironic isn't it. See also Acts 14:4.

(Well, 15 at this point).

It's true to say "There are only 12 apostles of the Lamb". They were eyewitnesses of Jesus' life, ministry, death, and resurrection. So, when they stood with Peter to address the Jewish crowd, 12 men, old enough to give a witness according to Jewish law, attested to the account Peter gave.

 

[Aaron56]

The plain meaning of Scripture was already given but I will repeat it for everyone's benefit:
I. And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him. (Mt 10:1-4) [Judas was replaced by Paul: Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, (Rom 1:1)]

II. And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. (Rev 21:14) It could not get any plainer.

III. . And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Mt 19:28)

IV. Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, (1 Cor 1:1) ["to be" is in italics since the Greek simply "Paul an apostle of Jesus Christ]

V. James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. [James -- the half-brother of Christ -- does not call himself an apostle]

VI. Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called: (Jude 1:1) [Neither does Jude]

Funny you don't count James but Paul does.

Even if Paul replaced Matthias (which he didn't) you're missing Silvanus, Timothy, Barnabas, and James.

Math is hard.

 

[presidente]

Sure you and others called them apostles. But based on biblical criteria, they were either evangelists, pastors, or teachers.

The word "apostle" in the NT has a very specific meaning and can only be to "the twelve apostles of the Lamb".

Instead of making pronouncements, why don't you look up what you are talking about. The Athenian government called government delegates it sent out 'Apostles' back during their days of dominating other cities.

The word had a meaning BEFORE it showed up in the New Testament. Apostle means sent one, emissary, delegate, or something along those lines.

There were Twelve apostles. Paul was not one of them, but he was an apostle. Barnabas was not one of the Twelve, but he was an apostle. Silas, Timothy, and Apollos were not members of the Twelve either.

And the Bible does NOT contradict itself.

We are agreed here. The contradiction is in your mind not in the text of scripture.

Indeed Christ said that the twelve apostles would sit on twelve thrones ruling the twelve tribes of Israel (Judas excluded). Twelve is the number of divine government.

That's fine. But it is not logical or rationale to see that as a contradict to Paul, Barnabas, Silas, Timothy, and Apollos being apostles.

 

[Inquisitor]

It's true to say "There are only 12 apostles of the Lamb". They were eyewitnesses of Jesus' life, ministry, death, and resurrection. So, when they stood with Peter to address the Jewish crowd, 12 men, old enough to give a witness according to Jewish law, attested to the account Peter gave.

You just excluded Paul as an apostle?

"They were eyewitnesses of Jesus' life, ministry, death, and resurrection."

Paul never walked with Jesus during the ministry of Jesus.

Paul was not an eyewitness of the life of Jesus, his death or resurrection.

Paul only saw Jesus after His resurrection and the last to do so.

 

[Inquisitor]

The plain meaning of Scripture was already given but I will repeat it for everyone's benefit:
I. And when he had called unto him his twelve disciples, he gave them power against unclean spirits, to cast them out, and to heal all manner of sickness and all manner of disease. Now the names of the twelve apostles are these; The first, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; Philip, and Bartholomew; Thomas, and Matthew the publican; James the son of Alphaeus, and Lebbaeus, whose surname was Thaddaeus; Simon the Canaanite, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed him. (Mt 10:1-4) [Judas was replaced by Paul: Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, (Rom 1:1)]

II. And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and in them the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb. (Rev 21:14) It could not get any plainer.

III. . And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. (Mt 19:28)

IV. Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother, (1 Cor 1:1) ["to be" is in italics since the Greek simply "Paul an apostle of Jesus Christ]

V. James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting. [James -- the half-brother of Christ -- does not call himself an apostle]

VI. Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called: (Jude 1:1) [Neither does Jude]

Some like James were called "apostle" by being closely associated with the apostles in their ministry. But the plain Scriptures tell us exactly what we need to know.

Here is what you claimed.

[Judas was replaced by Paul: Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, (Rom 1:1)]

That is incorrect and the text from Acts given below directly contradicts what you stated.

Acts 1:24-26
And they prayed and said, “You, Lord, who know the hearts of all people, show which
one of these two You have chosen to occupy this ministry and apostleship from which
Judas turned aside to go to his own place.” And they drew lots for them, and the lot fell
to Matthias; and he was added to the eleven apostles.

Why are you ignoring what the text clearly states?

 

[Inquisitor]

I am still waiting for you and Marilyn (or others) to give us CONCRETE examples of apostles and prophets today. Names, dates, prophecies, and whether they are simply rehashes of what is already in the Bible, or genuine revelations.

Accusing Cessationists but failing to prove your point means that you have no evidence.
But we have our evidence, and it is the COMPLETE Word of God, with the apostles and prophets within its pages. If you cannot be satisfied with this, then you are the one with a problem. We do not need new revelations, since God has given us all that we need. And the apostle-prophet John made that abundantly clear, while Paul said that prophecies would indeed cease.

Knowledge and prophecy would indeed cease when the perfect comes.

1 Corinthians 13:9
For we know in part and prophesy in part; but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away with.

There are two ministries mentioned above.

Knowledge and prophecy.

So when the canon of scripture was established then knowledge was done away with?

 

[presidente]

You just excluded Paul as an apostle?

"They were eyewitnesses of Jesus' life, ministry, death, and resurrection."

Paul never walked with Jesus during the ministry of Jesus.

Where do you get that? Paul was an apostle, but he wasn't one of the Twelve... according to his own words in I Corinthians 15.

 

[Marilyn]

Sure you and others called them apostles. But based on biblical criteria, they were either evangelists, pastors, or teachers.

The word "apostle" in the NT has a very specific meaning and can only be to "the twelve apostles of the Lamb". And the Bible does NOT contradict itself. Indeed Christ said that the twelve apostles would sit on twelve thrones ruling the twelve tribes of Israel (Judas excluded). Twelve is the number of divine government.

That automatically excludes anyone from calling themselves an apostle (unless they are false apostles). At first the twelve were "disciples" and then they were appointed as apostles.

The 12 were to witness to Israel, the other Apostles were given after the Lord`s ascension and are for the Body of Christ to help bring them to maturity in Christ.

 

[presidente]

The 12 were to witness to Israel, the other Apostles were given after the Lord`s ascension and are for the Body of Christ to help bring them to maturity in Christ.

The Twelve were sent to the nations, also, before the ascension.