What Changed?

God never forsakes anyone. That only happens to people who do not believe God to stick around to teach them, Never forces anyone as religion and people do that in our upbringings here on earth in the first birth.
thanks and to you too, giving all praise and glory to God in risen Son who took away sin first for us to be made new in continued trust to God it is done for us by Son only, as said in Col 1:1-23 to me, then chapter 2 where Son is revealed as risen where it made an open spectacle of those religious leaders that got him killed in the first place over worried about their job security

Good goals on your part. So what was the errant doctrine?

Satan can do something that God doesn't allow? And you have still missed the point: sin causes death. Jesus could not die on the cross regardless of what was done to Him if our sins were not laid upon Him. A child in the womb cannot die unless some sin has been laid to his or her account. SIN CAUSES DEATH.

Thank you, as God has taken it all to teach me trust to God only in risen Son for me. I stand in trust to God over it all
To further see what happened to me in this troubled time frame'
My Sister I saw as a waste of life, a rebellious one, yet loving, we were close, fought a lot at first, growing up, yet we became real close. Then I got the call at age 14 from San Francisco, from the coroner declared her dead, died on an overdose of Heroin.

Devastated, what a waste of life and wonderment, how. why and how can I deal with this?
Then I became an alcoholic, not accepting this as true, thinking she is alive and not dead, So I ventured away from home, not at first.
Then my dad died from sclerosis of the liver, at age 63, three years after his daughter, my sister died. I then got married, joined the military as more troubles pursed after me from there.
Then at age 21 my eldest brother died at age 31. He was found on campus crusade for Christ in 1978. Found by hikers two miles above the sanctuary there then. Leaned against a boulder with a Bible in his hand. as dead.
I had to go to San Bernardino California to pick up my brothers belongings. I was told to go to the main office there. To talk to Bill Bright the manger then in 1978. When I got there, I got asked by those there, about wanting to do more Aurtopsies on my brothers death. I asked why? They said they had already done three and could not find a physical causer of death.
I immediately stood up and said, do as many as you want I am now convinced God is real through Son Jesus
It ended up on his death certificate no physical cause of death found.
it was reported from my other sister, whom is still alive, that John my brother who died, told her over the phone about three days before his death, that "God just loves me"
That is when my new life in God began. And I love God knowing my brother, my sister, my mother my dad are safe somehow in his love and mercy. I just feel it and stand in that.
It took until almost until age 27 to leave alcohol as gone, as not a part of me any longer, which is God's doing not mine at all
then other things being peeled off me after that too. It is as like peeling an onion, there are a lot of tears when peeling one, yet the center is a sweet smelling savor
I stand and stood and continue to stand as if I am a Job in the book of job, yet me I have done much wrong and agree with God those things were never good for me to continue in them. So I quit willingly, not ever having to quit as gets taught to do by religion. which puts people in bondage. The Law was never meant for anyone to obey it. No one could or can but Son Jesus. It was meant to show us our need for the Savior to be in us and lead us new in love and mercy to all, not a few as if some people are better than others, when no one is.
Therefore, this is what I see from those deaths
My Sister as a waste of life in losing her life. My dad in what I now see as stinking thinking got him killed early at age 63.
Then my eldest brother no physical cause of death. God just loves us all, is that message I get and got to this day. There is life after physical death. Learning to live daily as if am already dead to the first birth of flesh Romans 6
I

Jacob and Esau in the womb were identified as nations.

Break it down... Jacob = Israel (God's chosen people) // Esau = Edomites (God's enemies).

The errant doctrines were the suggestions that only Adam sinned, and that children in particular are unable to (though I think we have established that babies are another matter). Even if you meant 'children' by a different definition than I addressed, or that Adam's transgression of a commandment was simply the only sin relevant for forgiveness in Christ (a claim I don't necessarily agree with), my main intention was that I didn't want error being introduce by imprecision or miscommunication.

Do realize, though, that I could possibly change my purpose at some point going forward.

Fair enough. As I have 8 children, I'm well aware that children sin. My point was that there is a period of time when life exists when there is no sin, and in this sinless estate some still die. Since sin causes death, it cannot be their own sin that led to their death.
This is what Paul is concerned to make clear in Romans 5. It's not that people who lived from Adam to Moses didn't sin; they clearly did. But sin accrues under the law and these people didn't break any laws because none existed. Yet, they still died. What accounts for that? Up to that point, only 1 human sin had been accounted to anyone. Thus, that sin must have been accounted to all humanity. This too is explained in Romans 5...in Adam all died.

I personally do not think so. God has to allow it, read Job 1. I see satan had to have permission. praise God.
I think it is now today those of the first birth that try to do things without permission, since Son took care of Satan at his resurrection, where Christ made a pitstop and said hey satan, those keys are now mine and took them. satan defeated, left only the first born flesh to do evil. and Flesh, first born in, does disastrous stuff.
As Father Patiently waits, yet will interfere for us his kids God has accepted in his love and mercy for them by Son to them, all that are sincere in belief are protected by God.
Hebrews 1 has much to say, at least to me as God reveals truth over errors of this world we are in

I appreciate the response, but it was a rhetorical question.

I still think you have an oversimplification there. Romans 5 seems to be arguing both sides, but clearly can't be. Maybe I missed it but I have yet to see you address verse 12 that says all men die BECAUSE they sin. I'm starting to think the significance of babies being under their parents' authority and covering is the missing piece in your paradigm if I'm understanding you.

BTW, thank you very much for doing your part on raising up the next generation. My calling thus far has been different but it is sad to see the people that are simply unwilling to pay the cost. Even the secular world is starting to be concerned at the current baby bomb - that is the troubling and problematic lack of babies!

The wages of sin is death...Romans 6:23. We enter the world under condemnation...John 3:18, Ephesians 2:1-3. Why would this be the case if we are born spiritually neutral and without sinning ourselves?

I don't agree that any of those verses is saying we enter the world under condemnation. I can kind of see how you might get that from the verse in John if you read it in a very black and white manner, but the Bible is not modern legalese to expect it to carve out an exception for babies. In fact doing so would dilute the intended emphasis and thereby undercut it's real purpose.

Also, again it is looking like you have confused physical death that is a direct result from sin, and eternal death that we are due in judgement if we don't accept Jesus as Savior. If your kid drinks antifreeze they are going to die whether or not you told them not to. If they somehow manage to survive and had done it against your directions, there is a place for judgment against them for their disobedience.

As for the born spiritually neutral question, to reiterate things I have earlier said, all are born into a fallen world that draws them to sin, so they won't stay neutral very long. And before that point (and for a while after) they are under the covering of their parents and are thus subject to their parents' choices and consequences.

Okay thank you

What person came into the world believing? Then they are under condemnation.
What person came into the world saved? Then they are under the dominion of Satan, are being dominated just as the children of wrath, and look altogether doomed until...but God...

Well we know its written that sin was found in Satan. The fact its written also Satan comes to steal kill and destroy. Those 3 things if God allowed it His kingdom would fall. The fact Satan said, as he was showing Christ the wonders the glory of this world in a moments time, saying it was handed or given to him and he could do with it what ever he wanted. Christ as they were taking Him said if this was my kingdom my servants would not let you take me. Its written Satan is the god of this world. Not God as we think of the Great I am but this was his since we handed it over to him. Job, its says have you considered my servant. Yet we should read it "hast thou set thine heart on my servant Job?". Christ had not come yet.

When we read what Job said and did, today we would tell someone by what you said or did you opened a door to the enemy. Eph give no place to the devil/enemy. Its why were told to watch how we talk what thought's we allow in so forth so on. Then look how Job got double all he had. Then read how God talked to him after all that. Its very clear God didn't, does not, cannot allow evil to do anything. Why do you think were told to pray always to have His word before our eyes always. To remember His promises? Why were told to remind Him of His word? He never forgot but there is one that is always before Him accusing the brethren "or the accuser of our brethren, he who keeps bringing before our God charges against them day and night, has been cast out!". Remember Christ what did He say back? "it is written".

Sin equals death in this world. The wages of sin is death. How ever it comes to us GOD never allowed it. But no one should take my word for it. Pray seek study ask Him. He is real right? Hes not the Muslim god Allah who never ever talks to them. Makes we understand because he is not real. Our Great I am is. I asked a great woman of God once "why don't I hear from God?" "you don't take the time to listen". That alone can take a very long time to shout out the world to pay the price to give up things we love.

Just expanding a little on your quote, and thank you for it
You know, John the Baptist came into the world saved and was the witness for the Christ to get baptized and be a witness to the first chosen. Also noting this as well. He was a Levite Priest, John was, saw behind the scenes, being a Levite Priest, ran away and started Baptizing in the Jordan to Baptize Jesus as the Messiah for the first chosen. That had not ever happened priorly.
John, Zachariah his dad, and mom Elizabeth, could not have children, then did by God and planted in her the Spirit of Elijah. Which Jesus said they did nor recognize John as the Spirit of Elijah.
Man interprets, yet God knows the entire truth as man does not since man does not see the inside as God sees it all
I see to trust God, who I do not see physically. 2 Cor 5:16. then read 17-20

Thank you, keep me in check to not step, out on my own, thank you, it is good to hear from you

I'll grant you that John the Baptist came into the world saved. I'll even grant others who never entered the world were saved. But this isn't God's usual way of salvation.
The rest...good stuff.

Whoever believes in Me, as the Scripture has said: ‘Streams of living water will flow from within him.’ ” He was speaking about the Spirit, whom those who believed in Him were later to receive. For the Spirit had not yet been given, because Jesus had not yet been glorified.


Jesus' words from John 7:37-38 and John 4:14

Being convicted of my SIN by the Holy Spirit, and then Repenting of my SIN, and crying out to God in FAITH to save me. then everything changed, and I was NEW, and CLEAN.