What Changed?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
5,945
1,872
113
You don't read too swell, do you? Give me the the exact verse in the passage that tells Nicodemus what he must do to be born from above? Did Nicodemus have anything to do with his physical birth? Then what would possess you to think that he would have anything to do with his spiritual birth? That he could will himself to be born again? Do you know what a metaphor is? What a simile is? What an analogy is? Has it every occurred to you that Jesus was telling Nicodemus that something must be done TO him from above? Have you ever pondered verse 8 wherein Jesus speaks of the sovereign will of the Spirit? Or have you ever read Jn 1:13? Can you connect the dots between these two latter verses?

A chain is only as good as its weakest link. And so it is also with arguments, premises, syllogisms, etc. There are no weak links in the Doctrines of Grace. They are not only solidly connected together, but they all connect just as solidly with the rest of scripture as well.
See. Like another Calvinist in another thread I tried to explain this too. He keeps insisting I (actually Jesus) did not answer his question

nicodenus asked. How can this be (in other words what must happen what must u seen. What do I have to do to be born again?)
Jesus started his answer by taking him back to Moses
what did the people have to do to live again? What (if they failed to do) would leaven them under Gods judgment

I answered the question
Jesus answered the question

They can’t see the answer because they would have to admit they are wrong.
Like she did in the other thread they will keep Asking the question that is right there in front of them. Like my Mom said. If it was a snake it would bite you.
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
5,945
1,872
113
Also, Mr. EG, I have a question to ask you about this verse:

John 3:10
10 Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou the teacher of Israel, and understandest not these things?
ASV
Well people this proves it. Even more proof he did not read anything I said. I answered this question yet he falsely accuses me (yet again) because he will not look in part 2 of my discussion I said this
Part 2. How and when are we born again.

As shown above, Jesus was having a discussion with Nicodemus on what ot means to be Born again, a requirment according to jesus, somethign that must happen if we are to enter the kingdom of God (be saved)

So in this post. I just want to focus on Jesus answer

10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things?

Interestingly enough. Jesus calls the teacher out. And lets him know. He should already know these things.. Being a teacher, he should not only knw them, but he should be teaching them himself.

Now remember, Nicodemus was a pharisee of pharisees, A religious leader of the Jews (To bring this into perspective, this would be the equivalent of a Church elder, a pastor. A bishop or a church leader, which brings me to my first point, Just because we have someone who is a leader or elder of a church, does not mean he understands the things of God. We should NEVER just blindly follow anyone in all areas, because even if they get a lot right, they could be wrong in some area, and as shown here, this area is a very important one, and here a church leader did not understand it.. nor could he teach it
You see. He can not discuss things when he does not listen. All he does is make himself out to be what I have accused him of.

Jesus chided Nicodemus for his ignorance of the OT scriptures. Since you pride yourself of all the vast knowledge you think you have of the sacred scriptures, can you tell me what OT passage{s) Jesus likely had in mind that was behind his rebuke of this teacher?
See. I answered but he can’t see. Not only again did I answer but Jesus answered by taking him to Moses and the bronze serpent. Just one of many OT passages Jesus could have taken him to. But one which fit perfectly. On in which @Rufus still after all this time refuses to even acknowledge

Keep it up. Your making it too easy.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
2,438
264
83
Part 3, the conclusion

So God sent serpents to them, and they could not get around them, they started to bite the people and many of the were dying, so once again, they cried out to God. And begged moses to ask God to take the serpents away, Which moses did. But God sent a different answer. He would not take away the cause of this death, but he would offer a solution, so that they may live inspite of the venom that was killing them (they were literally dead men and women walking)

Here is Gods answer:

8 Then the Lord said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and it shall be that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, shall live.” 9 So Moses made a bronze serpent, and put it on a pole; and so it was, if a serpent had bitten anyone, when he looked at the bronze serpent, he lived.

Such a short story. But a HUGE spiritual impact will be brought forth

1. God has Moses make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole (A type of Christ)
2. When people were bit. They were in effect dead. If they wanted to live (be reborn) they could continue to try to save themselves. Or they could trust in Gods provision, and just “look in faith to the serpent on the pole”
3. Those who did although they were dead, lived (they were in effect born again)
4. Those who did not in unbelief, remain condemned in the judgment of God in which he sent because of their rebellion

the point is, the serpent was not just sent to save those who lived, it was sent to save ANYONE who would believe, and just look at the serpent as god commanded them to.


WEAK LINKS IN CHAIN REBUTTAL:

You shoot yourself in the foot with your point number two. All humans come into this world spiritually dead. Not virtually dead. Nor dead "in effect" -- but as dead as Adam became after he disobeyed.

Re your last paragraph: The serpent on the pole was sent to those who were bitten. It wasn't sent to everyone because everyone in the camp wasn't bitten -- at least the passage doesn't say so.

And, yes, people looked to the snake on the pole because they didn't want to die physically. Man's survival instinct is very strong -- except when it involves the spiritual realm.
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
5,945
1,872
113
All the numerous questions I have asked you to which you have never responded are always wrong to you. You don't like being asked tough questions. So, my question about why would Jesus ask such foolish question when it was obvious to Nicodemus that he was already a physical human being is a legitimate question. Why state something obvious? My answer is that Jesus wasn't asking something so obvious -- but rather something spiritual and eternal which totally eluded Nicodemus, thus a great reason for the asking question, as I explained earlier. You obviously don't understand how analogies, metaphors or similes work.
This just proves
1 he is a false accuser. I have answered numerous times
2 he has not read if he did he would know I have answered
3 since he would know I have answered instead of falsely accusing me by saying I did
Not answer. Or the rest of his nonsense. He could say I disagree. Here is what Jesus is saying here. Here is what he is saying there. Here is what he meant when he spoke of the serpent and Moses (notice he still has not said a word about this)
instead he will push his will. His view falsely accuse in an attempt to take the focus off him. And never see what needs to Be seen
hence my remarks. He is just a troll
dude when your ready to Discuss John 3 in its entirety. Let us know. Myself and others i
Am sure would love to Discuss it with you
keep up this nonsense and prove you are what I say you are and hopefully people will be turned off by your actions
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
2,438
264
83
Well people this proves it. Even more proof he did not read anything I said. I answered this question yet he falsely accuses me (yet again) because he will not look in part 2 of my discussion I said this


You see. He can not discuss things when he does not listen. All he does is make himself out to be what I have accused him of.


See. I answered but he can’t see. Not only again did I answer but Jesus answered by taking him to Moses and the bronze serpent. Just one of many OT passages Jesus could have taken him to. But one which fit perfectly. On in which @Rufus still after all this time refuses to even acknowledge

Keep it up. Your making it too easy.
You didn't answer anything! I asked you for OT scripture cites or quotes! What specific OT passage(s) should Nicodemus have known? Since only the OT scriptures existed in Jesus' day, then Jesus himself must have had one or more specific passages in mind when he chided Nicodemus. Don't tell me that you don't know, O Arrogant and Prideful One -- who thinks you have this vast mountain of knowledge of the Word of God that is so high and lofty, no one can compare to you. So answer the question. Should be a piece of cake to you. :rolleyes:
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
2,438
264
83
This just proves
1 he is a false accuser. I have answered numerous times
2 he has not read if he did he would know I have answered
3 since he would know I have answered instead of falsely accusing me by saying I did
Not answer. Or the rest of his nonsense. He could say I disagree. Here is what Jesus is saying here. Here is what he is saying there. Here is what he meant when he spoke of the serpent and Moses (notice he still has not said a word about this)
instead he will push his will. His view falsely accuse in an attempt to take the focus off him. And never see what needs to Be seen
hence my remarks. He is just a troll
dude when your ready to Discuss John 3 in its entirety. Let us know. Myself and others i
Am sure would love to Discuss it with you
keep up this nonsense and prove you are what I say you are and hopefully people will be turned off by your actions
Sure is getting windy in here... :rolleyes:
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
2,438
264
83
See. Like another Calvinist in another thread I tried to explain this too. He keeps insisting I (actually Jesus) did not answer his question

nicodenus asked. How can this be (in other words what must happen what must u seen. What do I have to do to be born again?)
Jesus started his answer by taking him back to Moses
what did the people have to do to live again? What (if they failed to do) would leaven them under Gods judgment

I answered the question
Jesus answered the question

They can’t see the answer because they would have to admit they are wrong.
Like she did in the other thread they will keep Asking the question that is right there in front of them. Like my Mom said. If it was a snake it would bite you.
And you can't acknowledge the link between Jn 1:13 and 3:8. Jesus is not telling Nick he must do something! Rather, he's telling him something must be done to him! Let me ask you this really deep, profound tough question: Did you will yourself to be physically born?
What part of the two cites above don't you understand?
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
2,438
264
83
Jn 3:16: NR folks say the "world" must be understood in the universal/distributive sense because God loves each and every person in it.

Jn 3:17 NR folks say the "world" must be understood in the limited sense because Jesus doesn't actually save each and every person in it, since people must make that decisions for themselves even though He allegedly atoned for each and every person's sins. IOW, his death on the Cross is not effectual for all and does not apply to all until one chooses to believe and repent. Jesus' atoning work on the Cross, therefore, is hypothetically unlimited in the universe of NR theology. Jesus atoned for the sins of all...but he really didn't. After all, Jesus is only hypothetically everyone's Savior until they actually make Him their Savior through faith and repentance.

Conclusion: NR folks are duplicitous, hypocritical, inconsistent and contradictory.

And what an idol they have created to be the savior!
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,474
455
83


No I'm not. But are you by placing arbitrary time frame on Jesus?
Actually, you are adding to the words as they occur in their context, and are inserting into them an EXTRA gnomic theological sense that the text and context do not require, in order to commandeer the text for LOUPI.
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
5,945
1,872
113
Actually, you are adding to the words as they occur in their context, and are inserting into them an EXTRA gnomic theological sense that the text and context do not require.
Its ok

1. He could not respond to anything I said
2. He refuses to look at context
3. He refuses to look at Jesus words
4. He refuses to acknowledge he falsly accused me, then tried to bait and switch changing his question.
5. He refuses to even acknowledge how moses and the bronze serpent fits into what Jesus said.
6. He refuses to break down the PASSAGE As I did. And just wants everything to think I am wrong and he is right. Blah blah blah.

Like i said, He is his own worse enemy.. He made a false accusation against me and then kept pushing, so I pushed back. And now he is running all over the place trying to defend himself. Instead of trying to share what Jesus actually said in his complete discussion with nicodemus in any attempt to even show a different view than What I gave.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,474
455
83
Jn 3:16: NR folks say the "world" must be understood in the universal/distributive sense because God loves each and every person in it.

Jn 3:17 NR folks say the "world" must be understood in the limited sense because Jesus doesn't actually save each and every person in it, since people must make that decisions for themselves even though He allegedly atoned for each and every person's sins. IOW, his death on the Cross is not effectual for all and does not apply to all until one chooses to believe and repent. Jesus' atoning work on the Cross, therefore, is hypothetically unlimited in the universe of NR theology. Jesus atoned for the sins of all...but he really didn't. After all, Jesus is only hypothetically everyone's Savior until they actually make Him their Savior through faith and repentance.

Conclusion: NR folks are duplicitous, hypocritical, inconsistent and contradictory.

And what an idol they have created to be the savior!
No. Some reforming folks say the world CAN mean everyone, and in this text, everyone is the most plausible reading because God is love and it is not His will that any should perish and
Rom.5:18 ¶Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
2,438
264
83
Its ok

1. He could not respond to anything I said
2. He refuses to look at context
3. He refuses to look at Jesus words
4. He refuses to acknowledge he falsly accused me, then tried to bait and switch changing his question.
5. He refuses to even acknowledge how moses and the bronze serpent fits into what Jesus said.
6. He refuses to break down the PASSAGE As I did. And just wants everything to think I am wrong and he is right. Blah blah blah.

Like i said, He is his own worse enemy.. He made a false accusation against me and then kept pushing, so I pushed back. And now he is running all over the place trying to defend himself. Instead of trying to share what Jesus actually said in his complete discussion with nicodemus in any attempt to even show a different view than What I gave.
You're a great projectionist. You still haven't responded to my questions about Jn 1:13 and 3:8.

And you haven't responded to my question on what OT passage(s) do you think Jesus was alluding to with Nicodemus when he chided him for being ignorant of the new birth. You obviously don't know your bible nearly as well as you pride yourself; otherwise you would have answered by now.

And you have no response to the way Unlimited Atonement advocates conveniently switch horses in mid-stream by giving "world" in Jn 3:16 a distributive meaning, while in v.17 give it a limited meaning. Your soteriology is not only intellectually bankrupt but theologically impoverished as well.

Tell me, when John told his messianic Jewish audience that God sent his Son to be the Savior of the world (1Jn 4:14), how do you interpret the term "world": in a distributive or limited sense, and why?
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
2,438
264
83
No. Some reforming folks say the world CAN mean everyone, and in this text, everyone is the most plausible reading because God is love and it is not His will that any should perish and
Rom.5:18 ¶Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.
19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.
"Some reforming folks"? :rolleyes: But virtually all non-reformed folks insist that "world" always is used in the universal, unlimited sense.

And it makes no sense in that text that God loves everyone on the planet, as this would contradict many passages that teach that God hates, despises, abhors or has contempt for sinners. Plus in the context of Jn 3:16, God is loving the "whosoevers" in the world.

Also, its not God decretive will that none should be perish. His affective will is another matter; for it deals with his passions or emotions. But in the end God will always act in a principled just way; for he cannot do otherwise. His decretive will, for example, resulted in Ishmael and Esau being excluded from his covenant promises to Abraham.
 

Chaps

Active member
Apr 3, 2024
307
114
43
California
"Some reforming folks"? :rolleyes: But virtually all non-reformed folks insist that "world" always is used in the universal, unlimited sense.

And it makes no sense in that text that God loves everyone on the planet, as this would contradict many passages that teach that God hates, despises, abhors or has contempt for sinners. Plus in the context of Jn 3:16, God is loving the "whosoevers" in the world.

Also, its not God decretive will that none should be perish. His affective will is another matter; for it deals with his passions or emotions. But in the end God will always act in a principled just way; for he cannot do otherwise. His decretive will, for example, resulted in Ishmael and Esau being excluded from his covenant promises to Abraham.
If you look at the phrase “the world” in John’s Gospel, it is certainly not referring to a limited sense.

John 1:9The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world.
John 1:10He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him.
John 1:29The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
John 3:16“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
John 3:19And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.
John 4:42They said to the woman, “It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this is indeed the Savior of the world.”
John 6:14When the people saw the sign that he had done, they said, “This is indeed the Prophet who is to come into the world!”
John 6:33For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
John 6:51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”
John 7:4For no one works in secret if he seeks to be known openly. If you do these things, show yourself to the world.”
John 7:7The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify about it that its works are evil.
John 8:12Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”
John 8:26I have much to say about you and much to judge, but he who sent me is true, and I declare to the world what I have heard from him.”
John 9:5As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”
John 9:32Never since the world began has it been heard that anyone opened the eyes of a man born blind.
John 10:36do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?

Also, it is not saying God only loves the “whosoevers” of the world. It is saying that God loved the entire world. However, his condition for eternal life is believing in the Son. This opportunity is open to everyone. “Whosoever” makes it clear that this offer is not limited to particular races or geneologies, but anyone in the world. The point here is that God’s offer of salvation is not open only to a select few or a particular nation (such as Israel) but is extended to the entire world.

Of course God hates evil and condemns sinners. However, the entire point of the Gospel that Paul makes very clear in Romans 2-3 is that “no one” is righteous and all are sinners. This is why it is called grace. We dont deserve it and those who believe recieve what they have not merited based on Christ’s righteousness rather than their own.
 

PaulThomson

Well-known member
Oct 29, 2023
3,474
455
83
"Some reforming folks"? :rolleyes: But virtually all non-reformed folks insist that "world" always is used in the universal, unlimited sense.

And it makes no sense in that text that God loves everyone on the planet, as this would contradict many passages that teach that God hates, despises, abhors or has contempt for sinners. Plus in the context of Jn 3:16, God is loving the "whosoevers" in the world.

Also, its not God decretive will that none should be perish. His affective will is another matter; for it deals with his passions or emotions. But in the end God will always act in a principled just way; for he cannot do otherwise. His decretive will, for example, resulted in Ishmael and Esau being excluded from his covenant promises to Abraham.
"Some reforming folks"? :rolleyes: But virtually all non-reformed folks insist that "world" always is used in the universal, unlimited sense.

And it makes no sense in that text that God loves everyone on the planet, as this would contradict many passages that teach that God hates, despises, abhors or has contempt for sinners. Plus in the context of Jn 3:16, God is loving the "whosoevers" in the world.

Also, its not God decretive will that none should be perish. His affective will is another matter; for it deals with his passions or emotions. But in the end God will always act in a principled just way; for he cannot do otherwise. His decretive will, for example, resulted in Ishmael and Esau being excluded from his covenant promises to Abraham.
I am not reformed, nor am I non-reformed. I am reforming.

You cannot comprehend how God can love and hate the same person at the same time because you have an unrealistic image of how people are. People ate actually a mixture of both good and evil. When you notice an unattractive trait in a person, you feel negatively toward them. When you notice an attractive trait in a person, you feel positively toward them. However, God sees all traits of a person at once, so he reacts both positively and megatively to the same person at the same time
When speaking about their negative traits, God expresses disappointment, frustration, anger,, repulsion. When God is speaking about the same person's positive traits, He expresses appreciation, lovingkindness, mercy.

Ishmael was not excluded from all covenant promises. God promised to Abraham regarding Ishmael -
"GEN. 17:20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation."

Esau was blessed with territory from the LORD, and for as long as Esau honoured Jacob, Esau was blessed. But they were not included in Abraham's covenant tegarding Canaan. Righteousness through faith was available to both.

Gen. 35:4 ¶And Esau ran to meet him, and embraced him, and fell on his neck, and kissed him: and they wept.

33:29And Isaac gave up the ghost, and died, and was gathered unto his people, being old and full of days: and his sons Esau and Jacob buried him.

Gen. 36:6 ¶And Esau took his wives, and his sons, and his daughters, and all the persons of his house, and his cattle, and all his beasts, and all his substance, which he had got in the land of Canaan; and went into the country from the face of his brother Jacob.
7For their riches were more than that they might dwell together; and the land wherein they were strangers could not bear them because of their cattle.
8Thus dwelt Esau in mount Seir: Esau is Edom.

Esau honoured God's choice of Jacob to inherit Canaan , and deferred to God's chosen patriarch and seed-bearer. He was not excluded from justification by faith.
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
5,945
1,872
113
John 3 stands on its own

when people refuse to look at the whole of the conversation and pick and choice point that support their view.. or that they can use to in their view support it. Then I suggest people run.

@Rufus hurt himself when he refused to look at the whole. And all he does is babble.. its him against the world.

We can all pray for him.
 

Evmur

Well-known member
Feb 28, 2021
5,219
2,618
113
London
christianchat.com
I was trying to understand the purpose of life. Why am I here? How should I live?
Jesus told me that He could show me the answer to those questions.
He persuaded me that He is the living Saviour and King who can lead me, and can teach me through the Bible/scriptures. So I started trusting Him to do that. God reckoned my faith as righteousness and gave me a new spirit in which the Holy Spirit came to abide with me and They will guide me into ALL truth... eventually.
all this while the Holy Ghost was busy knitting socks for Himself.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
2,438
264
83
If you look at the phrase “the world” in John’s Gospel, it is certainly not referring to a limited sense.

John 1:9The true light, which gives light to everyone, was coming into the world.
John 1:10He was in the world, and the world was made through him, yet the world did not know him.
John 1:29The next day he saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!
John 3:16“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.
John 3:17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.
John 3:19And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil.
John 4:42They said to the woman, “It is no longer because of what you said that we believe, for we have heard for ourselves, and we know that this is indeed the Savior of the world.”
John 6:14When the people saw the sign that he had done, they said, “This is indeed the Prophet who is to come into the world!”
John 6:33For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world.”
John 6:51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh.”
John 7:4For no one works in secret if he seeks to be known openly. If you do these things, show yourself to the world.”
John 7:7The world cannot hate you, but it hates me because I testify about it that its works are evil.
John 8:12Again Jesus spoke to them, saying, “I am the light of the world. Whoever follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”
John 8:26I have much to say about you and much to judge, but he who sent me is true, and I declare to the world what I have heard from him.”
John 9:5As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.”
John 9:32Never since the world began has it been heard that anyone opened the eyes of a man born blind.
John 10:36do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’?

Also, it is not saying God only loves the “whosoevers” of the world. It is saying that God loved the entire world. However, his condition for eternal life is believing in the Son. This opportunity is open to everyone. “Whosoever” makes it clear that this offer is not limited to particular races or geneologies, but anyone in the world. The point here is that God’s offer of salvation is not open only to a select few or a particular nation (such as Israel) but is extended to the entire world.

Of course God hates evil and condemns sinners. However, the entire point of the Gospel that Paul makes very clear in Romans 2-3 is that “no one” is righteous and all are sinners. This is why it is called grace. We dont deserve it and those who believe recieve what they have not merited based on Christ’s righteousness rather than their own.
Well, if the term "world" is always used in the distributive sense then the entire world is saved, since Jn 1:29 says that Christ literally takes away the sin of [each and every person in] the world. Hallelujah! Everyone is saved. We cam preach the gospel of universal salvation! :rolleyes:

And for your info, God also hates sinners. (See my post 603 for numerous cites.)

And for your further info, God's love is also conditional in nature, which makes eminently good sense in light of the above fact.

Lots and lots of contradictions when you interpret scripture wrongly.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
2,438
264
83
I am not reformed, nor am I non-reformed. I am reforming.

You cannot comprehend how God can love and hate the same person at the same time because you have an unrealistic image of how people are. People ate actually a mixture of both good and evil. When you notice an unattractive trait in a person, you feel negatively toward them. When you notice an attractive trait in a person, you feel positively toward them. However, God sees all traits of a person at once, so he reacts both positively and megatively to the same person at the same time
When speaking about their negative traits, God expresses disappointment, frustration, anger,, repulsion. When God is speaking about the same person's positive traits, He expresses appreciation, lovingkindness, mercy.

Ishmael was not excluded from all covenant promises. God promised to Abraham regarding Ishmael -
"GEN. 17:20 And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him, and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princes shall he beget, and I will make him a great nation."

Esau was blessed with territory from the LORD, and for as long as Esau honoured Jacob, Esau was blessed. But they were not included in Abraham's covenant tegarding Canaan. Righteousness through faith was available to both.

Gen. 35:4 ¶And Esau ran to meet him, and embraced him, and fell on his neck, and kissed him: and they wept.

33:29And Isaac gave up the ghost, and died, and was gathered unto his people, being old and full of days: and his sons Esau and Jacob buried him.

Gen. 36:6 ¶And Esau took his wives, and his sons, and his daughters, and all the persons of his house, and his cattle, and all his beasts, and all his substance, which he had got in the land of Canaan; and went into the country from the face of his brother Jacob.
7For their riches were more than that they might dwell together; and the land wherein they were strangers could not bear them because of their cattle.
8Thus dwelt Esau in mount Seir: Esau is Edom.

Esau honoured God's choice of Jacob to inherit Canaan , and deferred to God's chosen patriarch and seed-bearer. He was not excluded from justification by faith.
So God is just like us mere mortals? You believe he's a mixture of good and evil? He has human passions, too?

I have long maintained that people of the NR Faith commit two very serious errors: They have a very low and dangerously unbalanced view of God and an inordinately and unjustifiably high view of man. Thanks for explicitly affirming my observations of many years.
 

Rufus

Well-known member
Feb 17, 2024
2,438
264
83
John 3 stands on its own

when people refuse to look at the whole of the conversation and pick and choice point that support their view.. or that they can use to in their view support it. Then I suggest people run.

@Rufus hurt himself when he refused to look at the whole. And all he does is babble.. its him against the world.

We can all pray for him.
I have looked at the whole. But since you insist that "world" Jn 3:16 is used in the distributive sense, then to be consistent with your self you would have to say the same about v.17 which means Jesus is saving each and every person in the world. But if not...Then God's plan of salvation is an epic fail. His clearly stated intentions in v. 17 have been thwarted, in spite of scripture teaching differently.

And have you found the OT passage(2) that Nicodemus was ignorant of? :coffee: