Please help me to respond to some of my non-trinitarian friends

Dear friend, you seem to be reading a lot more into this than the original point that was being made.

What does church attendees and crazy Christians have to do with any of this? I think you are letting your concerns for "easy believism", false Christians and Bible verse abuse, take you away from a simple, clear, black and white statement of fact.

By having a personal encounter with a trinitarian.

Greetings brothers and sisters. I have some Christian friends that are not trinitarians. What is the Trinity?
one God in three persons (one being or essence with 3 personalities)
co-eternal (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit have always existed)
co-essential (they share the same essence)
co-equal (the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God)
eternal generation (the begotten Son has always existed)
dual natures of Christ in one person (divine and human)
in their union each nature preserves its distinct attributes (Jesus is all human and all God)
two wills in Christ- divine and human- never conflict
One of my non-trinitarian friends says that Jesus was a Jew who believed the same about God as other Jews. First century Jews did not believe in the Trinity. Their Scriptures proclaimed radical monotheism. The reason why the Jews do not believe in the Trinity, then or now, is because of the Jewish Scriptures that proclaim monotheism.
....

My friend says that the Father and Son relationship occurs twice in our reality. It occurred before creation and it occurred when Jesus was born.
Heb 1 :5-7 For unto which of the angels said He at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again , I will be to him a Father, and He shall be to Me a Son? And again, when He bringeth in the first-begotteen into the world, He saith, " And let all the angels of God worship Him. And of the angels He saith , Who maketh His angels spirits, and His ministers a flame of fire.
Christ's existence emanated from the Father's (mind) from which all things exist. Christ is the first and only living spiritual being that came from the Father. That is why He is the Father's Son. Just like the Father, Christ has His own mind, heart, and soul. Because the Father's essence (Holy Spirit) completely fills Christ's being, Christ, with His free will, chooses to love and obey Him. That is why He sits at the Father's right hand (to do the Father's will). The Father communicates His will to the Son through His essence (Holy Spirit). The Son is One with the Father because the Father communicates and empowers through His Holy Spirit. The Son's will might differ from the Father, but the Son gladly acquiesces to the will of the Father. When Christ became a man, the essence of God the Father, through which Mary's seed was fertilized, again resulted in Christ being born but this time as a human. The Father and Son relationship occurs a second time.
Isaiah 43: 10 ... before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
This verse clearly states that the speaker is the only God formed. This verse is spoken by Christ because the Father has no beginning but apparently, the God (Christ) in Isaiah 43: 10 had a time that existed before Him which means that He didn't always exist in the past. Actually, the beginning started when Christ was formed out of the Father's mind. Alpha and Omega means the first and the last. The Son was the first being formed in our reality before creation and the Father put all things created under his feet which means that the Son is our Lord and our God in our reality, but the Father is Lord and God of all realities.

I was aware of this simple assertion of fact when I made the post. It's not a very good assertion of fact, though. If this was about the Holy Spirit's ministry in believers, as you say, you are basically left with Calvinism; because you have people receiving the Holy Spirit and then having the trinity revealed to them, and then you consider them believers- but it is only believers that will receive the Spirit to begin with.

But here's what Jesus said about how he would be revealed in the days when the Holy Spirit is poured out: "The one who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I will love him and reveal Myself to him.” and “If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word. My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our abode with him."

"2nd person of the trinity" is not his words; that is the words of dogma, revealed by the revealers of dogma- and received and so easily explained by every Catholic whether they actually believe it or not because it is a tradition of man.

You quoted...
John 14:26 But the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said unto you.

Many Christians walk outside that reality, for they do not understand how to maintain walking in the Spirit. (1 John 1:9)
They walk according to their emotions, how they "personally feel" God would do things.
Many get the bare essentials and never advance into maturing in Christ.
Yet you cited that passage as if it will automatically have the same benefit for all who believe.
Jesus spoke those words to those who were extremely well taught, and had sound knowledge..

This is what we are getting today!


"Work out your own salvation in fear and trembling." That, does not happen often enough these days.
Too many feel free to be self-confident and smug, being self-assured in that what they feel is so is the truth.


So be it .............

However, one does not have to be taught by another human being.

We have the completed revelation of God to His people

I couldn't agree with you more. There are a multitude of problems in and out of the church today. Indeed, these problems were prophesied long ago and we are deep into the time when people will not hear sound doctrine. Nevertheless, I can't agree with your one conclusion, as quoted here: "Yet you cited that passage as if it will automatically have the same benefit for all who believe."

I maintain that it will, limited to ones knowledge of the Scriptures. For the Holy Spirit cannot bring to mind the things which are not yet known within that mind. However, one does not have to be taught by another human being. We have the completed revelation of God to His people. A Regenerated individual, only needs to read and study God's Holy Word and the Holy Spirit will reveal THE TRUTH to that one. The Holy Spirit will not lead this one into error, especially where God and Christ are concerned. This was the only point I was making.

There is a rational for this thinking. For the one being saved, he must be able to answer whom Jesus Christ is... otherwise, you could shape Jesus Christ into whatever you want him to be. To have saving faith, is to believe in the Jesus Christ of the Bible and that Jesus Christ only. John 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall all be taught of God. Every one that hath heard from the Father, and hath learned, cometh unto me. The Lord made it clear, in order for one to come to Him, that one must be taught of the Spirit, heard the words of the Father, (John 14:10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I say unto you I speak not from myself: but the Father abiding in me doeth his works.), and then will be drawn by those words to the Son. This guiding work of the Holy Spirit, is also spoken of in 1 Thessalonians 4:9 - But concerning love of the brethren ye have no need that one write unto you: for ye yourselves are taught of God to love one another;

Therefore, the real problem we have in the world today, are people speaking and teaching about God who are not led by the Spirit. Churches are full of unregenerate people, being led by unregenerate, intellectual and humanistic preachers. However, this is no excuse for a true believer. Each and every true believer has a desire for THE OBJECTIVE TRUTH - not just any ole' subjective truth. But, churches are full of so-called believers, that have a Bible for show but at home it collects dust. Every true believer, has a responsibility to search the Scriptures, to confirm what has been said by another.

Finally, I will say, that even true believers can stray from the truth because of their own bias. Not in the things needed for laying hold of the true Christ, which would effect their salvation but in doctrinal things effecting their proper growth in the faith.

I hope you see what I am getting at. Unfortunately, these chat forums are to limited for such a complexed discussion.

My friend says that the Father and Son relationship occurs twice in our reality. It occurred before creation and it occurred when Jesus was born.
Heb 1 :5-7 For unto which of the angels said He at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again , I will be to him a Father, and He shall be to Me a Son? And again, when He bringeth in the first-begotteen into the world, He saith, " And let all the angels of God worship Him. And of the angels He saith , Who maketh His angels spirits, and His ministers a flame of fire.
Christ's existence emanated from the Father's (mind) from which all things exist. Christ is the first and only living spiritual being that came from the Father. That is why He is the Father's Son. Just like the Father, Christ has His own mind, heart, and soul. Because the Father's essence (Holy Spirit) completely fills Christ's being, Christ, with His free will, chooses to love and obey Him. That is why He sits at the Father's right hand (to do the Father's will). The Father communicates His will to the Son through His essence (Holy Spirit). The Son is One with the Father because the Father communicates and empowers through His Holy Spirit. The Son's will might differ from the Father, but the Son gladly acquiesces to the will of the Father. When Christ became a man, the essence of God the Father, through which Mary's seed was fertilized, again resulted in Christ being born but this time as a human. The Father and Son relationship occurs a second time.
Isaiah 43: 10 ... before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
This verse clearly states that the speaker is the only God formed. This verse is spoken by Christ because the Father has no beginning but apparently, the God (Christ) in Isaiah 43: 10 had a time that existed before Him which means that He didn't always exist in the past. Actually, the beginning started when Christ was formed out of the Father's mind. Alpha and Omega means the first and the last. The Son was the first being formed in our reality before creation and the Father put all things created under his feet which means that the Son is our Lord and our God in our reality, but the Father is Lord and God of all realities.

So how are they one? Your friend just made the case for 2.

Read post #113 on this thread.

Wasn't meant to be profound. I don't think there's anything wrong with looking at theological concepts of the Godhead; but as you said yourself; it's not your job to make one see it; moreover, I haven't seen a substantial difference in the lives those who hold one position over the other. A better "response" than endless philosophical discourse, is the living epistle of your life.

Is that better?

That's actually not what The Bible teaches.

The Book of Hebrews does not teach that Christ was ever 'created.'

I did. In it He makes the case for 3, not just 2.

....................... Who's on first?

Maybe you haven't lived long enough yet...to when you will step into eternity at death.

Not even a coherent sentence.

And I'm not even sure what the point of the rest of your post is either.

That's often a problem in chat. Some people think you should read their mind, while others think they can read yours.