Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

Gentiles were not raised in that system of Law, works and zealousness for the Law. The Lord chose a mystery to be revealed ONLY through Paul whereby the Gentiles were saved through grace. If you will recall:

Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

When the Lord set aside Israel because of their rejection of Him, Gentiles could only acquire salvation through grace since Israel, having rejected and crucified the Lord were not about to remain the light to the world, because at that time, Gentiles had to become Jews in order to acquire salvation. Israel failed and fell, and so the Lord revealed what He knew would have to come to fruition what was hidden in Him from the creation of the world.

Wisdom is precisely the definition of "mystery," of which was revealed only to Paul. If we were to walk in the shoes of the Jews at that time, what Paul spoke was indeed hard for them to understand the mechanism by which Gentiles could be filled with Holy Spirit apart from becoming a Jew. Yes. They were shocked and amazed, as is indicated in the Acts of the Apostles, the Book of Acts.

Yes, there were many Jews scattered abroad, who were also His sheep. If you recall, the northern ten tribes, which comprised Israel, with Judah being the remaining tribes in the south, were still scattered abroad after having been conquered and taken captive by the Assyrians in about 722 BC. They were not of the two tribes of Judah after the split in the kingdom.

This goes to the mystery revealed ONLY to Paul, and no other before him, not even the prophets nor revealed by Jesus Himself lest Satan and the princes be alerted and they then NOT seek to have Jesus crucified. If you don't understand that mystery, and dwell upon it, and thus willing to study on your own to show yourself approved, then that's your problem. As the old saying goes, one can lead a horse to water, but can't make it drink.

MM

Yes, I understand it- that can only happen through God and not by man or by his ability- God moves within to will and do of His good pleasure.
The "shall be saved" pertains to the salvation of the last day when those who have been saved during their lifetimes escape - saved - from the wrath of God, on the day of wrath.

[Rom 2:5 KJV] 5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Did you miss this verse in my prior post?

[Rom 4:2 KJV] 2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath [whereof] to glory; but not before God.

The Israel in view is not the nation of Israel but spiritual Israel, the Israel of God. Paul is saying that while they were yet without Christ, they, of necessity, were not part of spiritual Israel, but they would become so through Christ.



The Jews the Gentiles had/have to become are the spiritual Jews, the true Jews, not Jews of the nation of Israel - just as the true Israel is spiritual Israel, not the nation of Israel. Gentiles are those made spiritual Jews by God and include the elect of all nations and whom God chose to save - but not because of their nationality nor physical linage.



No, spiritual wisdom is from the Holy Spirit who dwells within all of those chosen upon by Christ upon their becoming born-again.

[1Jo 2:27 KJV] 27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.



His sheep are all those who He had made His sheep. It is not a function of physical linage but of God's choice.
It transcends all physical affiliations.

I think it's possible before Paul.

Luke 9:49
And John answering said, "Master, we saw someone casting out demons in Your name, and we were forbidding him, because he does not follow with us."

I don't see the correlation. The mystery is the body of Christ, not those who were able to work miracles who were not sent out by Christ nor the apostles.

What are you saying?

MM

Well, that smacks of replacement theology packaged in just another of many wrappers, with which I will never agree with as an Israeli myself,

Yes, And the land promise is part of that covenant;
1. The land was given to Abraham, And God promised he would make in this land a great nation

Gen 12: To a land that I will show you. 2 I will make you a great nation;

2. He tells us the boundary of the land he would give him.

Gen 15: 18 On the same day the Lord made a covenant with Abram, saying:

“To your descendants I have given this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the River Euphrates— 19 the Kenites, the Kenezzites, the Kadmonites, 20 the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim, 21 the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, and the Jebusites.”

3. He gave Abraham, and his descendants all the land, as an everlasting or eternal gift.

Rev 17: 8 Also I give to you and your descendants after you the land in which you are a stranger, all the land of Canaan, as an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”

In all of this, He also said he would be the father of many nations.. but this is separate from this one nation




Yes, In order to live in the land promised. in order to live in peace as God promised. God gave them the law. and said you will be blessed if you follow my commands

here, again Lev 26 answers all your questions. If they obey...

26 ‘You shall not make idols for yourselves;
neither a carved image nor a sacred pillar shall you rear up for yourselves;
nor shall you set up an engraved stone in your land, to bow down to it;
for I am the Lord your God.

2 You shall [a]keep My Sabbaths and reverence My sanctuary:
I am the Lord. 3 ‘If you walk in My statutes and keep My commandments, and perform them,

4 then I will give you rain in its season, the land shall yield its produce, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit. 5 Your threshing shall last till the time of vintage, and the vintage shall last till the time of sowing;
you shall eat your bread to the full, and dwell in your land safely. 6 I will give peace in the land, and you shall lie down, and none will make you afraid; I will rid the land of evil beasts, and the sword will not go through your land.

this is what they must do to enjoy the land given to them

But if they do not do this, and disobey, then there are 7 proceeding groups of disciplines God will impose on them to try to get them to repent. The final form of discipline, as I showed. is total destruction of their cities and high places. they will be removed from the land. and taken as slaves to the land of their enemies. where they will be made slaves.

And this happened 3 times in the past

1. Assyria destroyed th enorthern kingdom of Israel
2. Babylon destroyed the southern kingdom of Judah
3. Rome destroyed the totality of Israel in 70 AD. and it remains desolate even until today.

But even after this, Jesus said, If you repent, and confess. i will remember my covenant.

The mosaic covenant does not overule the abrahamic covenant.



Lev 26 explains this. Did you even read it?


Actually the northern kingdom was never brought back. It will not be brought back until the future when the bones are restored to life. and God brings these two nations together again, and back to the land, and they will not sin their sins anymore or commit their trespasses anymore. (ezek 37)

Judah was removed, then Judah was brough back into the land, but they were never restored. He just allwed them back into the land as slaves..





There is nothing there that proves you right, However. it does prove what I have been saying to be correct.


Which is what I have been saying since we first started talking. do you listen to what others are saying?

this is not the argument, the argument is that God is done with Israel.



Nothing you have posted proves me wrong.. Yawn




That does not negate the fact that the land was an unconditional gift. And as Paul said, the gifts of God are irrevocable


non of this proves your point, or proves me wrong.

The gift of God is irrevokable. God did nto take the land promise and give it to the church

He has not renigged on his promise to israel

They will repent. and God will restor them just like he said he would..

No, it's not about replacement theology; it's about fulfillment theology. God is honoring His promise of salvation to Abraham. Through this, and as with everyone else, some physical Jews are also saved—not because they belong to the nation of Israel, but because God chose them individually for salvation. Thus, everyone stands equally before God, with no one having a special advantage. Have you considered the verses I shared? Let me post them once more.

[Rom 11:5, 7 KJV]
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. ...
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

How do you know he didn't know the mystery, the mystery man I'm speaking of?

No, it's not about replacement theology; it's about fulfillment theology. God is honoring His promise of salvation to Abraham. Through this, and as with everyone else, some physical Jews are also saved—not because they belong to the nation of Israel, but because God chose them individually for salvation. Thus, everyone stands equally before God, with no one having a special advantage. Have you considered the verses I shared? Let me post them once more.

[Rom 11:5, 7 KJV]
5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. ...
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

No. Jesus did not at all say anything about His empowering anyone with the endurance the individuals must exercise under their own power, not the Lord's. Read again Matthew 24, and you will search in vain to find where it is even hinted at that they will receive His help for endurance, in relation to future salvation, not deliverance from Hell, but salvation that they SHALL be given in the future on the basis of their personal endurance.

We today are ASSURED of our salvation by the sealing of Holy Spirit. That is not at all hinted at in the word of Jesus in Matthew 24.



Wait a minute. The context of the above verse doesn't fit your application here, because:

Romans 2:3-4
3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?
4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

I don't see that as backing your claim for it being one Gospel throughout all.



I quoted that too, but you must have missed it, because James said the opposite:

James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

Paul, on the other hand said the opposite in your quote as well, and we also have this from Paul:

Romans 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

Both spoke the truth, but to different peoples at different times from each other. James wrote his epistle to the twelve tribes scattered abroad, as James 1:1 clearly states long before Paul started his ministry of revelation of the mystery that had been hidden in God from the creation of the world. James was not writing to Gentiles like you and all others today, but ONLY to Jews at that time, under the Kingdom Gospel of works as the means for justification. Paul's Gospel to Jews AND Gentiles was one of faith as justification. That difference alone shows to us how amazing that mystery (hidden wisdom) really was and is.

MM

You err and do not know the scriptures. For Jesus said outside of Mat 24:

John 15:5
5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
NIV

And in order to bear much fruit one must persevere in the faith! And Perseverance itself is a gift from God!
And you couldn't be more wrong about James and Paul preaching contradictory gospels. But that would be a post for another time.

Mr. MusicMaster said earlier today the Parable of the Vineyard and Jesus' conclusion from his own parable, i.e. that the kingdom would be taken from Israel and given to another nation (Mat 21) could not apply to the entire nation of Israel because this would negatively impact the promises God made to the patriarchs. Of course, that line of reasoning is totally fallacious since the fulfillment of the promises is not dependent on the nation of Israel but rather entirely on the ANTITYPE to Israel, namely Christ! All promises are "yes" in Christ!

Also, I want to point out that Jesus' Parable of the Vineyard was grounded in an OT allegory that dealt with God's Vineyard to wit:

Isa 5:1-7
Let me sing now for my well-beloved
A song of my beloved concerning His vineyard.
My well-beloved had a vineyard on a fertile hill.
2 And He dug it all around, removed its stones,
And planted it with the choicest vine.
And He built a tower in the middle of it,
And hewed out a wine vat in it;
Then He expected it to produce good grapes,
But it produced only worthless ones.

3 "And now, O inhabitants of Jerusalem and men of Judah,
Judge between Me and My vineyard.
4 "What more was there to do for My vineyard that I have not done in it?,
Why, when I expected it to produce good grapes did it produce worthless ones?
5 "So now let Me tell you what I am going to do to My vineyard:
I will remove its hedge and it will be consumed;
I will break down its wall and it will become trampled ground.
6 "And I will lay it waste;
It will not be pruned or hoed,,
But briars and thorns will come up.
I will also charge the clouds to rain no rain on it."

7 For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel,
And the men of Judah His delightful plant.,
Thus He looked for justice, but behold, bloodshed;,
For righteousness, but behold a cry of distress
NASB

Jesus' parable was indeed against Israel and was actually a prophecy of what was going to befall God's "vineyard' -- an event that was greatly expanded on in Mat 24.

Ephesians 3:3-9
3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power.
8 Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ;
9 And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

If it was revealed to anyone before Paul, then it was no longer a mystery.

Romans 2:16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Not Peter, James or John, but Paul's Gospel. It makes no sense for Paul to have declared ownership of the Gospel given only to him if it were a corporate Gospel that was the same throughout. It is were the same as that preached by the original 12, then Paul would have said "OUR Gospel," but he laid singular claim to the Gospel he preached, as given to him by Christ Jesus personally, according to what the Lord instructed to him that had been revealed to no other.

Romans 16:25 Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,

Does that help?

MM

It is were the same as that preached by the original 12,

Does that help?

MM

It probably was a shocker to the original 12 when finding out they weren't the only ones casting out demons in Jesus name.

Well, that smacks of replacement theology packaged in just another of many wrappers, with which I will never agree with as an Israeli myself, if I'm understanding you correctly. That's a doctrine of demons, because the Lord is not finished with my people because He is not finished with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in relation to the promises made to them for the NATION they gave fathered, which is a Kingdom that will finally come to reality in the Millennium.

I'm definitely not saying the man said anything about the mystery. John didn't even know the man.

And scripture doesn't say only Paul knew, just because something is a secret doesn't mean from everyone.