Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

The things you asked about do have to do with the beginning of the tribulation, within which some of these things happen, but I'll take them one at a time:

I'm not sure about the purpose of these questions because the narrative is a mix of thing, both immediately before, during and after the tribulation, and some even at the end of the Millennial Kingdom. There are timelines out there you can find that explain all this graphically.

2 Peter 3:13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Both. The body of Christ will dwell in the new Heaven, Israel will dwell in the new Jerusalem upon the new earth, and the tribulation saints who persevered to the very end of their lives on this old earth will occupy and populate the nation surrounding the new Jerusalem on the new earth:

Revelation 21:24 And the nations of them which are saved shall walk in the light of it: and the kings of the earth do bring their glory and honour into it.

So, the new earth will have no oceans, and will be populated with nations of the saved who were not a part of the body of Christ during the dispensation of grace. The body of Christ is comprised of some Jews and many Gentiles who are and will no longer Jews or Gentiles who are in Christ and a part of that body for we all from the cross to the rapture will comprise that body that will dwell in Heaven with the Lord.

Does that do it for you?

MM

The ONLY way Gentiles could be saved in OT times was to become a Jew. There's no getting around that:

Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

Many Gentiles did become Jews in order to find salvation in OT times:

Esther 8:17 And in every province, and in every city, whithersoever the king's commandment and his decree came, the Jews had joy and gladness, a feast and a good day. And many of the people of the land became Jews; for the fear of the Jews fell upon them.

There are those out there who spiritualize almost everything that they don't like in order to try and wrest it into saying what they want it to say, which is sophism at its worst when contrasted with intellectual honesty...or the lack thereof.

I hope this helps your understanding...not necessarily what I say, but what the word of God says.

MM

These verses become the foundation of the actions of all the saved.

[1Pe 1:2-5 KJV]
2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
3 Blessed [be] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you,
5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

I believe that my point was in response to your mention of salvation (in the Bible) being in a future tense. I was
demonstrating that those saved during their lifetime will also be saved from God's wrath on the last day, hence the salvation
of the last day being in the future tense.

The works of James 2:21 are Christ's works; the faith of Romans 3:28 is Christ's faith. This is why Christ is the Savior and man is not.
Justification for a person comes solely through the faith of Christ and His works, not through one's own faith and works. True faith, if one indeed possesses it, originated as a result of having been saved through which the imputation of Christ's faith and works are freely given. There is no righteousness in a self-generated, superficial faith that can spiritually justify an individual.

If it is only God who can justify, and only faith that can justify (which faith must also have produced corresponding works), it must follow, therefore, that it can only be of Christ's faith, not man's.

[Rom 3:24 KJV]
24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

[Phl 3:9 KJV]
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

[Gal 2:16 KJV]
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

I will at this time point out a key element within the above context; specifically the last verse. Peter was talking about the "...last time." That is the timeframe of his words. They all thought that they were in the final days, but that did not turn out to be the case. They had no idea there would be another two thousand years plus before the last days would actually commence. I could explain why, but will not belabor the point with that. So, that keeping power of God through faith unto salvation will be revealed in the last time, or last days...whatever terminology one may choose.

If only that were true from the words spoken:

Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

If we consider the various outplays of this, it can also be said, based upon this language, that those who do not endure, they will not be saved. Perhaps we can agree that they will not be saved from Hell fire and damnation. The bottom line of what I had said is therefore still valid, in that those of the Kingdom Gospel age must DO something, which is to endure unto the end of their lives. The term "shall" speaks of a condition in the future tense. Future to what? Future to the words Jesus spoke at that time in the past, covering all of the future for those under that gospel.

That does not apply to us, which points out a glaring distinction here. Why? Simply stated by Paul only, not the other twelve:

2 Corinthians 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts.

Ephesians 1:13 In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

This is not spoken about those under the Kingdom Gospel. Neither Peter, nor James nor John ever spoke of being "sealed" by Holy Spirit, but they ARE told that they must ENDURE. Paul never stated that in relation to salvation under the Gospel of Grace.

Ummm, I beg to differ. The text betrays the fact that James was indeed speaking of the works that a man may and should do in order that his faith is established, or real, or, again, whatever term one may choose to employ as the means for assuring the reality of the faith.

James 2:14-17
14 What [doth it] profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be [ye] warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what [doth it] profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

That has every appearance of effort on the part of an individual, not something done by the Lord in the place of effort on the part of the individual. Giving to the one in need is a direct act of the person claiming to have faith, with the volition being on the part of the individual, not upon God...that is, if I'm understanding your meaning correctly.

I simply don't see that in the words written. That has the earmark of injected meaning, because the work of providing for the one in need, the text says nothing about that work of provision being on the part of the Lord. Perhaps one could for an expansion beyond what the text actually says by claiming that everything belongs to the Lord, and so our giving to meet needs is still a matter of the Lord's provision. That strikes at the obvious of which nobody would normally argue against, but given that we store up treasure in Heaven by how we handle the things belonging to the Lord on this earth, that still doesn't force out the efforts on the part of the individual.

Does that make sense? I hope there is enough clarity in my words to bring forth the differences.

MM

No, it doesn't. Why can't you answer the first question? Don't you have enough dispensational timeline charts at your disposal to help you figure it out? You don't even know if the recreation of the heavens and the earth precede or follow the "1,000-year earthly kingdom"? Are those fancy, colorful charts so hopelessly confusing that you can't figure out whether its before or after? Really? If so, that's pretty sad. Maybe this passage can help you out?

Acts 3:17-21
17 "And now, brothers, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did also your rulers. 18 But what God foretold by the mouth of all the prophets, that his Christ would suffer, he thus fulfilled. 19 Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, 20 that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus, 21 whom heaven must receive until the time for restoring all the things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago.
ESV

It appears Jesus will remain in heaven until all things are restored -- things talked about "by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago". As a good messianic Jew, I'd have to think you would know what those things are? But in case you don't, I'll go out on the limb for you and make this wild and crazy guess: Since the prophets of old never spoke of a 1,000-year earthly kingdom, but they did speak of the creation of new heavens and new earth, I'd bet my bottom dollar Peter was alluding to those prophecies.

So...here's the problem for dispensationalism. If the "1,000-year earthly kingdom" occurs after all things are restored to their original former state, which the Gr. term "apokatastasis" (Strong's 605) means and which is taken from the Gr. root "apokathistemi" (Strong's 600) for "restoring", then after the 1,000-year kingdom also ends in disaster after the devil is released from his prison, etc., then are there two new creations: One before the earthly kingdom and one after the devil leads mankind into a revolt against God and his Christ again? (God just can't get it right, can he: The first creation resulted in the Fall of Adam, and the new creation results in the devil leading a rebellion against God. Since Adam's one sin utterly ruined the entire physical creation placing it under God's curse, how much more would a Satanic-led revolt against God and his saints ruin the recreated heavens and earth? (Is the third time supposed to be the charm?)

Or...if the "1,000-year earthly kingdom" occurs before "the restoring of all things" (new heavens, new earth), then how does Christ physically rule in that kingdom in the city of Jerusalem, since he must remain in heaven according to the Acts 3 text?

As far as the second question, since righteousness is going to dwell on both heaven and earth, what exactly is the point to having two groups of inherently righteous people in two different places at one time?

Seriously? We've been in the "last days" since Christ's first advent! Oy vey!

Heb 1:1-2
1:1 In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe.
NIV

Last days of what?

.

How is this NOT true when I quoted scripture and gave you the verses where Jesus said it?? I can show scripture where Jesus said it. Can you shore scripture that says it is not true? The Bible is not wrong; but your doctrine may be!


It is conditional upon a person “ABIDING IN CHRIST, “being faithful til death, on Christian’s who KEEP CHRIST’S WORDS -John 8:51- anyone who KEEPS MY WORD shall never see death. That is a CONDITIONAL PROMISE. Just because a person dies not believe that or refuse to acknowledge it or accept that fact dies NOT make it any less true.[/quote]
Then it is really conditional life. not eternal life.. God is not going to call something eternal that is not eternal.



Those people returned to their vomit, because they were dogs, They had not yet repented and come to true saving faith. where God made them into a new creation.

Your describing make believers, not true believers.[/QUOTE]

Can you show by scripture that this is not true? ” what exactly is not true? That Jesus said the church at Ephesus had NOT FALLEN?Thats in chapter 2:5. So, yes, they had FALLEN (FROM GRACE) see Galations 5:4.

This thread certainly took a turn.

God moved the Bible's writers, to write exactly what He wanted written. There are no accidents or misinterpretations placed into the Scripture, otherwise, it would be untrustworthy.

[2Ti 3:16 KJV]
16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Completely disagree for a multitude of reasons and I don't think we will be able to resolve this issue now as we are too far apart.

No, it doesn't. The verses (above) actually speak of Christ as the "a man". If they are not speaking of Christ, they shed no light on the matter of works. If it is being suggested by those verses, that we must perform works to prevent our faith from being dead (and we from becoming saved), then it was also Jame's duty to detail which works are necessary, their number, and the frequency of their performance—details not specifically provided elsewhere in the Bible, yet critical to achieving them. Because that is missing from those verses it renders them meaningless, obscure and unhelpful as stated. However, if it is instead realized that it is Christ as the "a man", then the Bible has itself filled-in and answered all of those questions, by which, we understand that only God could satisfy the requirements of faith, showing us that it is impossible for man to meet such criteria. Now, the saved will possess faith in Christ, share the gospel with the unsaved, and contribute to their physical well-being. These are outward demonstrations of salvation, accompanying it, but not causing it. This is why Christ is Savior and man is not.

See my previous answer.

Sorry MM, I realized that I wasn't clear enough in my prior reply. Let me retry.

This is the verse I actually intended to reference - thought v18 was there too and was what I was referencing. Hope this is clearer. If not, please let me know.
Sorry for the confusion.

[Jas 2:18 KJV]
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

No, it doesn't. The verses (above) actually speak of Christ as the "a man". If they are not speaking of Christ, they shed no light on the matter of works. If it is being suggested by those verses, that we must perform works to prevent our faith from being dead (and we from becoming saved), then it was also Jame's duty to detail which works are necessary, their number, and the frequency of their performance—details not specifically provided elsewhere in the Bible, yet critical to achieving them. Because that is missing from those verses it renders them meaningless, obscure and unhelpful as stated. However, if it is instead realized that it is Christ as the "a man", then the Bible has itself filled-in and answered all of those questions, by which, we understand that only God could satisfy the requirements of faith, showing us that it is impossible for man to meet such criteria. Now, the saved will possess faith in Christ, share the gospel with the unsaved, and contribute to their physical well-being. These are outward demonstrations of salvation, accompanying it, but not causing it. This is why Christ is Savior and man is not.

Getting past the adversarial tone, the re-creation of the new Heavns and new earth is after the Millennial Reign of Christ and after the Great White Throne Judgement. I don't understand what's at issue here.

Acts 3:17-21
17 "And now, brothers, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did also your rulers. 18 But what God foretold by the mouth of all the prophets, that his Christ would suffer, he thus fulfilled. 19 Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, 20 that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus,

Click to expand...

You're free to interpret all of that as you wish. It makes no never mind to me because the body of Christ will not be a part of that Millennial Kingdom, which will be governed by the Kingdom Gospel, especially given that those nations that had come up against Israel in this creation in the past will be required to attend the Feast of Tabernacles each year, and those that refuse will not have rain for their crops.

So, given that we have always looked forward to a Theocracy, except that period when out ancestors demanded a king like the other nations, you can believe whatever you want about Christ ruling from here on earth or in Heaven, but we are not told that He ascends back up into Heaven after His feet touch down upon the Mt. of Olives, and it splits in half at that point. Believe whatever you want.

Restoring to what state...the garden of Eden or to a pristine or ideal state in the midst of still existent sin, given that sin will still be in the hearts of man at that time and upon the earth, thus the need for Christ to rule with a rod of iron? I will say the latter, although you are free to force the state of Eden into it if you want. Again, that makes no never mind to me.

Again, believe as you wish, for it makes no difference how we see it all from the perspective of the body of Christ since we will be in Heavenly places rather than upon this earth or the one to come.

When it speaks of "all things" in relation to restoring:

Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

Restoration doesn't have to be one process completed within the timeframe one may assume upon that text. The restoration begins with Israel once again having a kingdom restored to them in the Millennium, so yes, He can very well be here for that, with the remaining restoration of creation culminating in the eradication of sin with fire upon the old creation, and a new created in its place, and the Kingdom continues in the new creation.

Again, we the body of Christ, will not dwell in that new earth since we will dwell in Heavenly places.

Huh? The new Jerusalem is on the new earth, so what do you mean two different places? If you look at Revelation 7, the tribulation saints do not have crowns on their heads, but rather white robes and palm branches, so they are indeed different from the body of Christ, and thus not a part of it because they had rejected Christ until after He began to reveal Himself through His wrath upon this earth at the beginning of the tribulation, onward.

MM

Then it is really conditional life. not eternal life.. God is not going to call something eternal that is not eternal.

Eternal life is a gift, a reward for doing right. Rewards and gifts certainly can be CONDITIONAL without destroying the free gift. A merchant may say “IF” you are one of the first 10 customers you get a FREE GIFT! Or an add may say, “a FREE box of candy with every $10 purchase.” Even on Facebook, an add may say. “ text the word ‘YUM’ to get the free recipe. You accept and believe CONDITIONAL prizes all the time, in every aspect of life EXCEPT religion; and that is because, in religion, it does not fit your false doctrine. You can’t afford to admit that what the scriptures teach are true, because that would destroy the doctrine of “once saved/always saved”. Most, if not all of God’s promises are conditional.
—-Honor your parents THAT YOUR LIFE MAY BE LONG ON THe EARTH. Eph 6:1
—-He who believes and is baptized SHALL BE. SAVED. Mark 16:16
—-John 6:40 even eternal life is CONDITIONAL ON “belief.” By your own statement “ that makes it CONDITIONAL LIFE and NOT eternal life. And that makes God a liar, because as YOU say, “ God is not going to call something ‘eternal if it is not eternal.’ And according to your LOGIC if it is conditional then it is NOT ETERNAL. What nonsense! God said, everyone that believes in Him will have everlasting ( eternal) life. What if you don’t believe in Him?? That makes ‘faith”. CONDITIONAL to have everlasting life. Of course salvation is conditional. And that makes John Calvin’s doctrine WRONG. It IS a doctrine of MAN after all.




Those people returned to their vomit, because they were dogs, They had not yet repented and come to true saving faith. where God made them into a new creation.

Your describing make believers, not true believers.[/QUOTE]

Can you show by scripture that this is not true? ” what exactly is not true? That Jesus said the church at Ephesus had NOT FALLEN?Thats in chapter 2:5. So, yes, they had FALLEN (FROM GRACE) see Galations 5:4.[/QUOTE]

Oh, I didn't see this until now. That's the weakness of reading and responding in sequential order...

The transposition of Christ in the place of man having to exert his own effort to endure, even in the face of the language clearly indicating that very reality, I don't know what else to say.

As for works, unless you were raised in the Mosaic Law, knowing it the way that we have been taught, "works" is indeed works of the Law, which is consistent with the message James spoke. There are " works" and then there are "good works," which are not so different from the Law, but generally include things not addressed specifically within the Law. I don't have the time to school you or others in ways of Judaism and the Law, this how WE understand those words, but those who rightly divide the word of truth see it quite differently than all who were never raised under the Law and all the auspices of Judaeo dogmas. You simply could not relate, just as I can't relate to the Gentile way of life without the Law. Whether they like it or not, Gentiles are under the condemnation of the Law except that they believe in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ Jesus.

Just my thoughts on the matter...

MM

It's true that some may find it disturbing that parallel items that fit in with the main topic become discussed in-depth, which can make it appear that there's been a grand departure, but all of this does tie in to the OP topic.

MM

Why don't you believe Christians dwell in heavenly places now? Do we not have access to the throne room of God presently?

Of this age that extends from the first advent to the second.

Christ is the only man ever to demonstrate both faith and works perfectly, satisfying both, so that it is not a requirement of man to satisfy. No need to school anyone on Law because relative to salvation, it was abolished by grace. The law the unsaved are under
is the law of sin and death (or the law of works). Condemnation is made by the following:

[Jhn 3:18 KJV]
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


[Eph 2:15-16 KJV]
15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, [even] the law of commandments [contained] in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, [so] making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:

[2Co 3:11, 13 KJV]
11 For if that which is done away [was] glorious, much more that which remaineth [is] glorious. ...
13 And not as Moses, [which] put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

[Heb 7:11-12, 18 KJV]
11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need [was there] that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. ...
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.

Last days and latter days refer to the end of the old covenant.

Of course, you don't. But...congratulations for finally answering the question. In fact...double kudos! For you also did it without injecting the "great tribulation" into the answer.

So...again, the problem is that Peter says in Acts 3 that Christ must remain in heaven until the time for restoring all things which the prophets spoke about long ago.

So...how is the embodied Christ going to rule from Jerusalem here in earth while also remaining bodily in heaven until the restoration of the universe, which occurs after the "1,000-year earthly kingdom? You see...Acts 3 doesn't say that heaven must receive Christ until he restores the Davidic kingdom on earth for a thousand years (which incidentally ends in epic failure and something of which the OT prophets knew nothing). Check out Isa 2, 11, 60, 65, etc. -- all of which speak to the New Eternal Order -- when all be restored to its former Edenic glory PLUS! For example, there will be no wars, men will no longer learn of war, no more death, no harm will be done on God's holy mountain, the carnivores will revert back to the original herbivore natures, etc. None of this stuff happens in the so-called "earthly millennium kingdom". Then when you get done studying the above chapters, study Rev 21 and 22 that contains a good deal of Garden of Eden language in it.

And again...the New Jerusalem is not a city in Revelation. It's not a place. It's a PEOPLE -- or more precisely -- God's redeemed people. The "New Jerusalem" is an allegory -- a symbolic representation used for people. No literal city is the Bride of Christ or adorned as such, but the Body of Christ is! It is the Body of Christ (i.e. the Church) who descends unto the New restored Earth. And the reason behind the allegory is actually found in the later chapters of Revelation; for just as God's holy dwelling PLACE under the Old Covenant was in a brick n' mortar temple in Jerusalem, so throughout all eternity during this eternal New Covenant dispensation, the redeemed of God will dwell in the eternal temple which is God and his Christ, and they in turn will dwell in their holy people, and the redeemed likewise in their thrice Holy God.

P.S. Did you ever figure out which nation Christ gave his kingdom to after he took it away from Israel (Mat 21)?