Why I now believe that salvation can be lost.

It’s not different. You are not more powerful than God. If you think you can walk away and he will not leave the flock to bring you back. You do not know God very well

Context, friend.

Matt. 18:1 At the same time came the disciples unto Jesus, saying, Who is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven?
2 And Jesus called a little child unto him, and set him in the midst of them,
3 And said, Verily I say unto you, Except ye be converted, and become as little children, ye shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
4 Whosoever therefore shall humble himself as this little child, the same is greatest in the kingdom of heaven.
5 And whoso shall receive one such little child in my name receiveth me.
6 But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea.
7 Woe unto the world because of offences! for it must needs be that offences come; but woe to that man by whom the offence cometh!
8 Wherefore if thy hand or thy foot offend thee, cut them off, and cast them from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life halt or maimed, rather than having two hands or two feet to be cast into everlasting fire.
9 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: it is better for thee to enter into life with one eye, rather than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire.
10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones; for I say unto you, That in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.
11 For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost.
12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?
13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.
14 Even so it is not the will of your Father which is in heaven, that one of these little ones should perish.

Matthew 18:14 refers to little children born innocent who eventually are tempted to go astray from their youth, like a straying sheep.

Being Evil From Youth
Genesis 8:21
Verse Concepts
The Lord smelled the soothing aroma; and the Lord said to Himself, “I will never again curse the ground on account of man, for the intent of man’s heart is evil from his youth; and I will never again destroy every living thing, as I have done.

Source: https://bible.knowing-jesus.com/topics/Youth
Verse 14 refers to the fact that God does not want children to go astray in their youth, and vv. 6-9 warn the one who tempts them to do so is doing what Satan did to Adam and deserves a severe punishment. Nevertheless, the Son came to seek and save those who in their youth have been led astray from innocence. It is not God's will that any child perish, even when they end up going astray in their youth.

From this passage we could infer that every innocent child has been given to Christ as His sheep, and when they eventually go astray, it is not His will that they perish, but that they be sought and saved.

also to me it doesn't make sense Jesus would say He "never" knew them if the truth is that He did in fact know them, then stopped knowing them later. one would expect the text to say "depart from Me, I used to know you"

Jesus says that there will be many who never had a relationship with Him that produced agape love working in Jesus' name through them toward others, but who assumed that power working in Jesus' name through them proved them chosen by God. He does not mention in this passage whether or not there are others whom He did once have a relationship with, who chose to depart from Him and to whom He will say, "Keep on departing from me. Because you kept on denying Me, I will deny you."

We cannot assume that when Jesus describes one particular class of people who falsely professed to be disciples, that these are the only class of people who will be found to have been falsely professing to be disciples. It seems to me that you are drawing conclusions from the text that the text does not even address.

Jesus said :
John 10:29
My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father’s hand.

In Greek the words " No one " means no one.

Jude 1:24-25

Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, to the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.



I agree that one can walk away from faith, but that is not the primary focus of the believer. We are to search our hearts to ensure we are in the faith. I do not believe the Holy Spirit is slacking on His ability to convict the believer, so they repent and ask for forgiveness.


Hebrews 4:16
Thos who come boldly to the throne Room of Grace to obtain Mercy in their time of Need. Instead of all roads leading to you can lose your faith and salvation. Should we not be forced to strengthen our relationship with the LORD?

This topic is not about salvation being lost; it is a debate among two groups that do more to scatter than unite.

I do trust His promises.
1. Keep on looking to the cross and keep on believing in Him (present imperatives) and uyou will never die and you will have aeonous life.

2. God has given Jesus the universe, i.e. everyTHING (Greek "pan"). He will restore it all on the last day.[/quiote]
The lost will still be condemned.

he who believes is not condemned, He who does not believe is condemned already (they were not at ne time a believer, their condemnation never departed)

Ie, You have conditional life. Not eternal life.

Listen my friend, The word of God, Jesus himself said at any given time, if a person has placed their faith in christ. (Not mere belief, but an assurance That of everything God promised. He will keep) then you at that time will never die. You have that promise. If there is any possibility you could still die. Jesus lied. He then not only said you will never die That you also have life eternal. Or life everlasting. if that could ev er be lost because of something I did or did not do. That too is a lie. We call the fact you can keep something given to you if you do this or do not do that conditional, or you are trying to earn a wage. That is why it is called of works. You want to boast of your faith. Feel free.. I will boast in Christ.
No he did not

Again, your language skills are self focused and not God focused.

He said whoever places their faith in Him, faith to what? Faith to save them, to keep them from judgment, to adopt them as his children.. Shall never come to judgment.

Again, if after this, I can again fall under judgment, Jesus lied.
Ahh. So you’re under law not under grace, I see. No wonder you can not believe in eternal life..

Remember, John said we have it. its not somethign we are tryign to earn, it is a gift.

Keep trying to earn that gift. Then tell my you trust God. I will never believe you

No. You trust as long as you do something, God will save you.

Your faith is self. Not God..

I think I explained somewhere that he did bring me back, I just meant that you can lose your faith, he brought me back, but I could have chosen not to be brought back, declaring myself more powerful than god. but I didn't. he brought me back.

I like your take on this, in that we are all free to walk away from any religion we choose, but the question to the detractors still remains as to how anyone CAN walk away from a genuine faith that was well grounded in the Blood of Christ shed for all. They seem to be arguing that this is a common occurrence like a cake walk, with loads of examples, and yet they can't produce one example. Dare they point at the recent "departure" of some kid who confessionally walked away from his belief in God...it can be asked, in relation to Peter's epistle, how he could have ever been saved in the first place.

2 Peter 1:10-11
10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:
11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

The verb "fall" in this verse, according to Thayer's Greek Lexicon, has this meaning:

"b. to fall into misery, become wretched (often so in Greek writings): of the loss of salvation, 2 Peter 1:10. "

The only license Thayer took in this definition is to dare attaching the definition to the contextual content of "salvation."

This, then, gives me pause in relation to absolute statements people make about the fall from salvation, and thus questioning the voracity of the salvation claim those people ever laid claim. Emotions can and do run high at various moments in life and in religious vigor, but raw emotions doesn't have the prolonged adherence throughout a life to provide the outflow of the works of exemplified salvation and righteousness. Dynamic personalities can indeed fool everyone around an individual. That's why biblical eldership is based upon a life lived in Christ for decade after decade of faith and righteousness lived outwardly for all to see, not because of some youngster who seemed saved by way of the vigor and enthusiasms on display for all others to see.

This is one of many downsides to churchianity, where the masses enter a place, fade into the woodwork, and claim they had experienced true fellowship with the backs of other people's heads...after coffee and donuts fellowship, of course... Yeah, right!

MM

Amen. It's like the person who reads the word of God in their personal devotion, and when they see a verse that convicts them, they immediately think of others instead of being corrected. Everyone else will lose their salvation but them. LOL.

That is called Self-Righteousness.

What follows is a short, concise summary of the differences between the major presuppositions of Covenant Theology and Dispensationalism and their resulting errors, which I have copied off the back cover of John G. Reisinger's book. I would heartily recommend Reisinger's little book (151 pages) for more in-depth analsyes of both systems; neither of which do I subscribe. New Covenant Theology is mine, for it avoids the serious errors of both systems.

Abraham's Four Seeds is a biblical examination of the presuppositions of Covenant Theology and Dispensationalism. Pastor, evangelist and author John G. Reisinger demonstrates how a correct understanding of Abraham's seeds is key to to harmonizing Scripture. He writes:

The following statement is correctly understood will help clear up a lot of confusion: The nation of Israel was not the "Body of Christ", even though the Body of Christ is indeed the true "Israel of God". (emphasis mine)

Covenant Theology cannot accept the first part of that statement and Dispensationalism cannot accept the second part. The basic presuppositions of Covenant Theology make it mandatory that Israel be the Church and be under the same covenant as the church, and the one thing a Dispensationalist must maintain is the church's present and future distinction from Israel which makes it mandatory that Israel and the church can never be under the same covenant or inherit the same blessings. What is essential to one system is anathema to the other system.

Dispensationalism cannot get Israel and the church together in any sense whatsoever, and Covenant Theolgoy cannot get them apart. Dispensationalism cannot see that the church is the true Israel of God and the fulfillment of the promises that God made to Abraham and the fathers, and Covenant Theology cannot see that the church, as the Body of Christ, did not and simply could not exist in reality and experience until the personal advent of the Holy Spirit on the Day of Pentecost. Dispensationalism insists that Israel and the church have totally different promises and and destinies (one earthly and the other heavenly), and Covenant Theology insists that Israel and the Body of Christ are equally "the same redeemed church under the same 'covenant of grace' and governed by the same canon of conduct.'"

Dispensationalism drives a wedge between the OT and NT and never the twain shall meet as specific promise (OT) and identical fulfillment (NT); and Covenant Theology flattens the whole bible out into one covenant where there is no real and vital distinction between either the Old and New Covenants or Israel and the church.

The Old Covenant proved one's guilt and forbade one to draw near without a perfect righteousness or an acceptable sacrifice. The New Covenant declares a believer to be both righteous and accpetable in God's sight, and bids him to come boldly without fear into the very Most Holy place that was totally closed off to all but Aaron under the Old Covenant.

The Law as a legal covenant ended when the veil of the temple was rent from top to bottom, and the Law as a pedagogue over the conscience was dismissed on the Day of Pentecost when the 'promise of the Father' took up his abode in every believers as the personal Vicar of the ascended Lord. The giving of the Spirit is the proof of the accepted work of Christ in the heavenly tabernacle, and the 'given Spirit's indwelling the believer is the indelible assurance of our eternal accpetance by the Father. (emphasis is author's)

It is the author's desire that this book would be of benefit to those who desire to understand "What does the Scripture say?" May the watchword Sola Scriptura have real meaning in the church. (emphasis author's)[/QUOTE

I’m so glad you admitted this came from a MAN and even gave us his name—John Reisinger. I have to admit that I had no desire to read what some man has to say—

I have stated before that I am not convinced one way or the other concerning once saved always saved (OSAS) or Perseverance of the Saints (POTS). I am not settled on one side or the other. I don't see any imperative to believe one or the other, Whether OSAS or POTS is true does not affect my relationship with God and my trust in God or my personal experience of salvation by grace through faith in Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour.

My point is that the Greek text of Philippians 1:6 does not seem to me to say what some are relying on it to be saying to prove Paul was teaching OSAS or POTS.

The argument that God needs to do EVERYTHING involved in us getting saved in order to get ALL the glory for our salvation; and that God getting ALL the credit is morally superior to the believer getting credit from God for his/her faith in God, is a moralistic fallacy. Clearly, Abraham's faith was reckoned to him by God as righteousness, and Abraham glorified God nonetheless -

Rom. 6:
20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what He had promised, He was able also to perform.
22 And therefore it (his faith) was imputed/reckoned/credited to him for righteousness.
23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it (his faith) was imputed/reckoned/credited to him (for righteousness);
24 But for us also, to whom it (our faith) shall be imputed/reckoned/credited (for righteousness), if we believe on Him (God) that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

It is not immoral to accept the credit God gives us for putting faith in Him.

Yes, I Lost my faith.. Not in his salvation or his gospel. Or that I needed saved. I lost faith in the church. In biblical things. I became a prodigal son for 5 years. I walked away’’

one thing is true. I never lost my son ship. If I would have died. God would have raised me, Because even if I am faithless he is faithfull. He can not deny himself

I also was chastened deeply that whole time.. I could not live like I used to before salvation. It was like vomit to me, and I did not like it. Or want to eat it. God used it to bring me back

out of respect to your question, I believe there is an element of the unknown that no man can know of a person. surely you know there are people in church who may not be saved. lets look at Judas.

Judas did healings he was sent out with all the others and they came CAME BACK saying even devils are subject to your name.

Hear what Jesus said

Luke 10:17-21

17 Then the seventy returned with joy, saying, “Lord, even the demons are subject to us in Your name.”
18 And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven.



19 Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you. 20 Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rather rejoice because your names are written in heaven.”


Your name is written.

Remember when Jesus said one of you will betray me. All asked, is it I, Lord?

Judas fooled everyone but Jesus. Here, no man can know only GOD. He who has an ear Hear what the Spirit is saying.

You Must be born again. Those whose names ARE not written are only known by GOD. I think we very well may be surprised as to who is and who is not based on our limited earthly understanding.

No, you are putting words in my mouth, that's a NO NO, I am merely saying people can freely turn against God after having known God. Its just a fact. Its one thing to stray, and just get lost, its entirely a different thing when you turn against God. Any "Christian" who advocates for any type evil will not make it to heaven. Stand on the corner and advocate for the pro homosexual movement or for the abortion movement and never repent, you will not make it to heaven. God knows our hearts, WORDS mean nothing, our heart means everything, David murdered a man, but God knew his heart and knew he would repent. If he had said my murder is no murder, I am king, David would be in hell.

I see salvation as being saved: a present state of abiding in Christ. That means that when I stop trusting in Christ, I stop being saved. And when I return to keeping God in my thoughts, a return to being saved. I do not see temporarily falling from grace as resulting in a permanent state of disconnection from God. It is not a difficult thing to turn from what has distracted me and to return to communion with the Father and Son. I think it is better for me to be aware of when I have been excluding God and to aim to maintain a more constant remembrance of God and Christ, than to manufacture some theological system that assures me that I will ultimately receive the prize of glorification, whether I am abiding in Christ now or wandering apart from Him, now. I don't feel any need for an assurance of my future glorification in order to be motivated to yield to Jesus in my present. It is the beauty and love and character of God as He is now that inspires my present trust in Him, not the promise of future bliss.

There is an interesting passage in John 6:28-29 where the disciples ask Jesus what they must do to work the “works of God.” Jesus states that “faith” is a work of God. 2 Thess. 1:11 also talks about the “work of faith”. I find it interesting that the disciples realized there was something they should “do.” And Jesus’s answer makes it clear that “believing” is doing something. Jesus often praised people for their faith. I think it would be a surprise to most people to find out that faith is a WORK! But that’s what Jesus said.

In other words. For god so loved the world. He gave his only begotten son, that whoever believes in him, will never perish, but has eternal life. As long as they keep looking at him..

in other words. They have conditional life.

So what exactly is being "born again"? In your words please clear this up. Are you saying we can be born again and then walk away from Jesus? We have to establish what this means before we can go any further. What does it mean to be born again, what do you say happens to us when we are born again?

I think this means that if you fall away, your previous faith gives you no benefit.

Jesus says that there will be many who never had a relationship with Him that produced agape love working in Jesus' name through them toward others, but who assumed that power working in Jesus' name through them proved them chosen by God. He does not mention in this passage whether or not there are others whom He did once have a relationship with, who chose to depart from Him and to whom He will say, "Keep on departing from me. Because you kept on denying Me, I will deny you."

We cannot assume that when Jesus describes one particular class of people who falsely professed to be disciples, that these are the only class of people who will be found to have been falsely professing to be disciples. It seems to me that you are drawing conclusions from the text that the text does not even address.