He asked what purpose Revelation was for, not about whether I understood it or not. I do not know whether he understood the Book, so I suggested that he study it. His line of questioning me had gone on for a few posts, which you apparently have not read. So you would be better off not making assumptions about things you are not aware of.
Will There Be A Rapture?
- Thread starter DavyP
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That's a wild accusation above. I have not interjected any such word into the text of God's Word.
The phrase "caught up" is the English translation in the KJV Bible of the Greek word harpazo.
The word 'rapture' comes from a Latin translation of that Greek word harpazo (NT:726) and 'rapture' is NOT in The Bible NT manuscripts either.
Some brethren here appear to have a problem with what Lord Jesus said in the below, that they think it's not about His gathering of His saints... which IS... about the "caught up" event that Apostle Paul described in 1 Thessalonians 4:17...
Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV
I don't know about you, but that 27th verse above perfectly aligns with what Apostle Paul taught here...
1 Thess 4:16-17
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV
That event is what some call the 'rapture'. The word 'rapture' is from a Latin translation of Greek harpazo which means to seize, or carry away. Likewise, the "caught up" phrase is a translation from Greek harpazo.
Do some folks have a problem not recognizing that Mark 13:24-27 Scripture is Jesus speaking of His future coming to gather His saints that are still alive on earth when He comes? How is that Mark 13:27 verse not about the 'rapture' (or the "caught up" of 1 Thess.4:17)? Do some folks have... to actually see the word 'rapture' in that Mark 13:27 verse in order to believe Jesus was actually speaking of His coming and a gathering of the alive saints from earth???!?
Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV
I don't know about you, but that 27th verse above perfectly aligns with what Apostle Paul taught here...
1 Thess 4:16-17
16 For the Lord Himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
KJV
That event is what some call the 'rapture'. The word 'rapture' is from a Latin translation of Greek harpazo which means to seize, or carry away. Likewise, the "caught up" phrase is a translation from Greek harpazo.
Do some folks have a problem not recognizing that Mark 13:24-27 Scripture is Jesus speaking of His future coming to gather His saints that are still alive on earth when He comes? How is that Mark 13:27 verse not about the 'rapture' (or the "caught up" of 1 Thess.4:17)? Do some folks have... to actually see the word 'rapture' in that Mark 13:27 verse in order to believe Jesus was actually speaking of His coming and a gathering of the alive saints from earth???!?
This about sums it up for me:
"When Jesus returns to the earth after the time of the seven year Tribulation, He will establish His kingdom on earth.[1] This is a time when humanity will be saved from the tyranny of Satan who currently rules over the earth.[2] At His Second Coming, it is written, “And the armies which are in heaven, clothed in fine linen, white and clean, were following Him on white horses” (Rev 19:14).
Concerning this passage, Radmacher states, “The armies in heaven may be angelic hosts (Rev 5:11; Matt 26:53), but Revelation 17:14 speaks of those with the Lord at His coming as being ‘called, chosen, and faithful,’ all terms for believers (Rom 1:7; Eph 1:1; 1 Pet 2:9).”[3]
Wiersbe adds, “Certainly the angels are a part of this army (Matt 25:31; 2 Th 1:7); but so are the saints (1 Th 3:13; 2 Th 1:10).”[4] Norman Geisler states:
“Before the Tribulation, Christ comes for His bride (1 Th 4:16–17; John 14:3); then, at the end of the Tribulation, He will return with all His saints. Jude wrote, “See, the Lord is coming with thousands upon thousands of his holy ones” (Jude 1:14; cf., Matt 24:29–31).
He cannot come with them until He has first come for them; we have identified the time interval between these events as seven years.”[5]
“It is important to remember that when we say “the second coming” of Christ, we are not talking about the rapture that occurs prior to the second coming.
The rapture is most clearly presented in 1 Thessalonians 4:13–18. It is characterized in the Bible as a “translation coming” (1 Cor 15:51–52; 1 Th 4:15–17) in which Christ comes for His church. The second advent is Christ returning with His saints, descending from heaven to establish His earthly kingdom (Zech 14:4–5; Matt 24:27–31).”[6]
At His Second Coming, Jesus will put down all rebellion, both human and satanic. The two main leaders of the world, the Antichrist and his false prophet, will be defeated and “thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone” (Rev 19:20).
Furthermore, those people who followed Antichrist “were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh” (Rev 19:21).
Afterwards, the Lord will send one of His angels to arrest and imprison Satan (Rev 20:1-3).
John wrote about this angel, saying, “And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer” (Rev 20:2-3a). This will be a time of global deliverance from evil as Messiah reigns over all the earth in perfect righteousness. (H. Wayne House and Timothy J. Demy, Answers to Common Questions about Jesus (Grand Rapids, MI: Kregel Publications, 2011), 75–76. )
I was pointing out that this word ^ is not in the Matthew 24 text... nor in the Mark 13 text like you suggested it is:
The Greek word for "caught-up" [Strong's G726 - harpagēsometha - "snatch"] is NOT in this text... *you* are INJECTING it INTO this text.
At the time of "our Rapture," BOTH "the DEAD in Christ" (now bodily-resurrected) AND the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto" will be "caught-up TOGETHER"... that is, "caught-up / snatched" at the same time (that's what "caught-up / snatched TOGETHER WITH them" means).
NOT that the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto" will *MEET* them UP THERE (IN THE AIR)--that's NOT what the text itself tells us.
NOT that the "we which are ALIVE and remain unto" will *MEET* them UP THERE (IN THE AIR)--that's NOT what the text itself tells us.
.
I've watched a number of films pertaining to the rapture and every one of
them left out the part where 2,000 years of deceased Christians from all
over the globe will be restored to life.
The films also left out the part where Jesus' followers rise into the air to
meet him. Instead the films showed them visible one second and invisible
the next, but I rather suspect the real rapture will resemble a human Oort
Cloud impossible to ignore .
The rapture is likely to get pretty noisy too what with all the cheering,
laughing, and shouting that's sure to take place when Jesus' followers
receive their new bodies; which of course will be forever full of pep and
immune to age. (1Cor 15:51-53)
The films also showed tiny children being taken while their parents are left
behind. That's highly doubtful because minors have often been collateral
damage when God slammed their parents, e.g. how many tiny children
survived with Noah aboard the ark? None. And how many would've been
lost had God followed thru with His plan to annihilate Nineveh? 120,000
_
I've watched a number of films pertaining to the rapture and every one of
them left out the part where 2,000 years of deceased Christians from all
over the globe will be restored to life.
The films also left out the part where Jesus' followers rise into the air to
meet him. Instead the films showed them visible one second and invisible
the next, but I rather suspect the real rapture will resemble a human Oort
Cloud impossible to ignore .
The rapture is likely to get pretty noisy too what with all the cheering,
laughing, and shouting that's sure to take place when Jesus' followers
receive their new bodies; which of course will be forever full of pep and
immune to age. (1Cor 15:51-53)
The films also showed tiny children being taken while their parents are left
behind. That's highly doubtful because minors have often been collateral
damage when God slammed their parents, e.g. how many tiny children
survived with Noah aboard the ark? None. And how many would've been
lost had God followed thru with His plan to annihilate Nineveh? 120,000
_
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My quote of what Lord Jesus Christ said in that Matthew 24:29-31 Scripture is definitely not... my "theology", which that word suggests it's an idea that came from me personally, or that I created it.
No, Lord Jesus said what He said in that Matt.24:29-31 Scripture, so no man can simply claim it is just 'theology', which is a word often used to represent a system of 'opinions' by man, which is how I take that you are using that word. Either one believes Jesus in His Word, or they do not and instead believe something else, and that is the actual matter.
No, Lord Jesus said what He said in that Matt.24:29-31 Scripture, so no man can simply claim it is just 'theology', which is a word often used to represent a system of 'opinions' by man, which is how I take that you are using that word. Either one believes Jesus in His Word, or they do not and instead believe something else, and that is the actual matter.
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The Greek word harpazo ("caught up" in 1 Thess.4:17), does not have... to be present in those Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 Scriptures to know Christ was speaking of the day of His future coming to gather His Church.
If I'm talking to you about soldering wires with a soldering iron, what subject am I talking about? Electrical, clearly. Same thing with what Lord Jesus was talking about upon the Mount of Olives with His disciples about the day of His future coming and the end of the world, questions they asked Him.
Now in the Mark 13:24-27 version specifically, Jesus spoke of the gathering of the Church of those still alive on earth. Now what event is that? EASY! It's the "caught up" event that Apostle Paul described in 1 Thessalonians 4:17.
Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV
So your little tirade of word fallacy about Greek harpazo not being in the above just does not work.
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Firstly, the tense of the Matthew 24:23-26 Scripture is SINGULAR, so the KJV translators really did not properly translate Greek pseudochristos which is meant in the singular tense. Here's why it is about a singular false one...
Matt 24:23-26
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, He is in the desert"; go not forth: "behold, He is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.
KJV
Those two Matt.24:23 & 26 verses are in the singular tense. Jesus was pointing to a singular false-Messiah in all the above verses. Greek pseudochristos (translated as "false Christs") is made up of two Greek words: pseudo, which means false, and christos, which is singular for Christ. This is why Dr. James Strong in his Strong's Exhaustive Concordance defined Greek pseudochristos to mean 'a spurious Messiah' (NT:5580).
Also in 2 Thessalonians 2, Apostle Paul warned that the "man of sin", (same one Jesus was warning about in Matt.24), must come first. 2 Thess.2:8 even tells us Jesus will come and destroy that false one by the Spirit of His mouth, showing that false one will appear on earth first, and that prior... to Christ's coming to gather His Church.
So if... you are on the man-made pre-trib rapture theory, and you've been taught that Christ's warnings in Matthew 24 about that coming false-Messiah is not for His Church, then you have been LIED TO. Apostle Paul and John covered the matter of that false one who comes first prior to Christ's future return to gather His Church.
Will that false-Messiah create a FAKE rapture? That's very possible, as Jesus also warned at the end of Luke 17 and in Matt.24:28 about the first one TAKEN being like a dead "carcase" 'taken' to wheresoever the fowls are.
Luke 17:35-37
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said unto Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said unto them, "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."
KJV
The Matthew 24:28 version uses the word "carcase" instead of "body". What Jesus said above shows that the man-made pre-trib rapture doctrine is a lie, and will put one's soul in danger.
Matt 24:23-26
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, He is in the desert"; go not forth: "behold, He is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.
KJV
Those two Matt.24:23 & 26 verses are in the singular tense. Jesus was pointing to a singular false-Messiah in all the above verses. Greek pseudochristos (translated as "false Christs") is made up of two Greek words: pseudo, which means false, and christos, which is singular for Christ. This is why Dr. James Strong in his Strong's Exhaustive Concordance defined Greek pseudochristos to mean 'a spurious Messiah' (NT:5580).
Also in 2 Thessalonians 2, Apostle Paul warned that the "man of sin", (same one Jesus was warning about in Matt.24), must come first. 2 Thess.2:8 even tells us Jesus will come and destroy that false one by the Spirit of His mouth, showing that false one will appear on earth first, and that prior... to Christ's coming to gather His Church.
So if... you are on the man-made pre-trib rapture theory, and you've been taught that Christ's warnings in Matthew 24 about that coming false-Messiah is not for His Church, then you have been LIED TO. Apostle Paul and John covered the matter of that false one who comes first prior to Christ's future return to gather His Church.
Will that false-Messiah create a FAKE rapture? That's very possible, as Jesus also warned at the end of Luke 17 and in Matt.24:28 about the first one TAKEN being like a dead "carcase" 'taken' to wheresoever the fowls are.
Luke 17:35-37
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said unto Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said unto them, "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."
KJV
The Matthew 24:28 version uses the word "carcase" instead of "body". What Jesus said above shows that the man-made pre-trib rapture doctrine is a lie, and will put one's soul in danger.
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Because it means falling away to worship another in place of Christ, which is what the word Antichrist actually means per the Greek (i.e., the 'instead of Christ', or 'in place of Christ'). And those who fall away to that one in place of Christ will thus be subject to the following when Jesus appears...
Rev 14:9-11
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation; and He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."
KJV
Will those deceived by man's false pre-trib rapture theory wise up to what's happening when the false-Messiah shows up in Jerusalem and their church leaders tell them that's Jesus Christ? I pray that all will wise up and know that first one is a fake. This is actually the matter that Apostle Paul was talking about with the "strong delusion" of 2 Thessalonians 2. This future event of the false-Messiah that comes first is what is going to cause the great apostasy that he mentioned there.
Rev 14:9-11
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation; and He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name."
KJV
Will those deceived by man's false pre-trib rapture theory wise up to what's happening when the false-Messiah shows up in Jerusalem and their church leaders tell them that's Jesus Christ? I pray that all will wise up and know that first one is a fake. This is actually the matter that Apostle Paul was talking about with the "strong delusion" of 2 Thessalonians 2. This future event of the false-Messiah that comes first is what is going to cause the great apostasy that he mentioned there.
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By your words above, I have to think that you believe in the man-made false doctrine called 'Once Saved, Always Saved', that some beth-avens (houses of vanity) preach today against God's written Word.
You show obviously that you haven't read that much of Apostle Paul's Epistles, or that you just bypassed his warnings to the Churches against their falling away. His warnings in 2 Thessalonians 2 about those who will be apostates to that "man of sin" and thus suffer the "strong delusion" is a very... strong warning for believers on Jesus Christ at the end of this world. Why don't you heed that warning by Paul there?
Here's another warning by Paul against falling away to the "another Jesus"...
2 Cor 11:2-4
2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one Husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
KJV
Why would Apostle Paul give that above warning to the brethren there if it were not... possible for them to be deceived and thus fall away to that "another Jesus"??
But I get what you're about brother. You want to re-write God's Word to fit your own personal notions. Doesn't work that way.
You show obviously that you haven't read that much of Apostle Paul's Epistles, or that you just bypassed his warnings to the Churches against their falling away. His warnings in 2 Thessalonians 2 about those who will be apostates to that "man of sin" and thus suffer the "strong delusion" is a very... strong warning for believers on Jesus Christ at the end of this world. Why don't you heed that warning by Paul there?
Here's another warning by Paul against falling away to the "another Jesus"...
2 Cor 11:2-4
2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one Husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.
3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
4 For if he that cometh preacheth another Jesus, whom we have not preached, or if ye receive another spirit, which ye have not received, or another gospel, which ye have not accepted, ye might well bear with him.
KJV
Why would Apostle Paul give that above warning to the brethren there if it were not... possible for them to be deceived and thus fall away to that "another Jesus"??
But I get what you're about brother. You want to re-write God's Word to fit your own personal notions. Doesn't work that way.
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I think it's because he's still young enough that he might end up going through the great tribulation (given that scripture says that the Lord Jesus will come back to collect us AFTER the tribulation so there is no pre-trib rapture).
I understand if you don't even care about it though because you might be old enough that you might not to have to go through it at all. But please be patient with the younger generations as they are more likely to go through this. And please pray for them!
🏂