Question for those who believe in a Pre-Tribulation Rapture

Where that may be a distant possibility stated nowhere in scripture, it therefore does not rise above the level of assumption.

MM

I'm still not getting the thrust of that, but I don't see that it causes a crisis of theological proportions.

MM

Well? Our citizenship is in heaven. No?




And there will be some qualified resurrected believers who will reign with Him.

Well, those reigning with Him on earth during the Millennium? They will not be situated in Heaven to fulfill such an obligation.
They will have to be deployed to the New Earth for their active duty.

grace and peace ..........

It was at Pentecost that Peter stepped forward and set the groundwork for the introduction to understand the newness of the spiritual
experience for the new life in Christ.

Here is a passage from a letter to the Thessalonians.

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17
For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel
and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive,
who remain, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord...

It looks as though the dead rise first at Christ's return and we join them in the clouds.

I do not see that the dead have already risen before He returns and they are already
with the Lord.

Why is eschatology such a jumbled mess?

We have Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib, Post-Trib, No-Trib, Pre-Millenial, Post-Millenial.

Preterism, Partial Preterism, Idealism.

We also have no idea which one is correct may'be none of them are correct.

So how long is that tribulation before Jesus returns?

I have to believe that it is possible to become unborn again, otherwise I have to believe that before I came to christ, I was saved 'wrong' somehow. meaning that people who truly believe that they are saved could be going to hell. simply because they said the words wrong.
actually, the holy spirit is not too weak, he gives us humans choice. without which, he is a cruel overlord forcing millions to not accept him. would you say he is "too weak" to get the whole world to follow him? no. what is this seal? everyone knows a seal is a seal until someone breaks it. If I break away from God, I am breaking the seal. it can be re-sealed, it just is currently un-sealed.

WHY SHOULD IT MATTER HOW LONG? The point is, to be and stay ready for when Jesus does return.

Those that belong to the first resurrection are those that reign with Jesus, they reign during
the millennium.

Revelation 20:4
Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw
the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because
of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not
received the mark on their foreheads and on their hands; and they came to life and reigned
with Christ for a thousand years.

Revelation 20:5
The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.

The rest of the dead are not raised until the thousand years are completed.

Because the anti-Christ only reigns for forty two months.

We are given the time durations for a reason.

AI disagrees with you.

In the New Testament, the concept of the church as the "bride of Christ" includes both Jews and Gentiles who believe in Jesus. Here are some key verses that support this idea:

1. Ephesians 5:25-27:
   
   "Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless."​
   This passage emphasizes Christ’s relationship with the church, which is often interpreted as the bride.
2. Revelation 19:7-9:
   
   "Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready. Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear."​
   Here, the "bride" is depicted as being ready for the wedding, which includes all believers.
3. Romans 11:17-24:
   
   "If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, do not consider yourself to be superior to those branches..."​
   This metaphor illustrates Gentiles being included in the covenant promises, reflecting the unity of both Jews and Gentiles in Christ.
4. Galatians 3:28:
   
   "There is neither Jew nor Gentile, neither slave nor free, nor is there male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus."​
   This verse highlights the equality and unity of all believers in Christ.

These verses collectively convey that the church, comprising both Gentiles and Jews, is seen as the bride of Christ in the New Testament. (ChATGPT)

Mwhaaaaaaaaa.

================
MM,

There is no "generally speaking" about this. It's silly nonsense like yours that wear down, decieve, mislead and waste Christian's time. You speak against truth with your opinion that clearly opposes scripture.

Are you not familiar with the parable of the 10 virgins in Matthew chapter 25? Christ Jesus is pictured as the bridegroom of the Church, representing true beievers, and the ten vigins represent the Church who are the bride of Christ.

I saw somewhere that you seem to be Catholic, which might be part of your problem.

I thought about this and I'm thinking it's the children left before the age of accountability? Some of us immortal redeemed will need to take care of them. I wouldn't mind doing that! 🥰


🐶

I don't have a problem with it. Even ancient Israel was a rebellious nation. Not all Jews through all time were truly devoted to God. But they do love their traditions and ceremonies - the more ostentatious, the better. Plus they don't think Jesus is their Messiah - hence why they feel the need to continue their daily animal sacrifices. So to them, they MUST have that third temple.

I think it lies more in the fact that you don't see God orchestrating anything in history unless He spells it out, even turning the mind of the United Nations to giving the Jews Israel as their homeland after WW2.

I read about the 6-day war in 1967 and I teared up at how God turned that whole thing around for Israel. Before that time, Jerusalem was divided - they didn't have total control of it. So while their enemies meant to destroy Israel and sweep them into the sea in the summer of '67, Israel actually conquered them and MORE - they reclaimed the whole of Jerusalem! Do you see God's quiet hand in that? I do.

So it is for many things in history. Even the Holocaust was allowed because God knew the outcome from it. It's like what Joseph said:

Genesis 50:20 You intended to harm me, but God intended it for good to accomplish what is now being done, the saving of many lives.


🐶

In your own system of thought, what do you suppose we will be reigning over, or rather, whom? The tribulational nations upon the new earth already ruled over and governed by Christ and Israel from within the New Jerusalem, or among our own ranks in Heaven? I'm just curious, because that text does not at all indicate the objects of our rule with Christ.

MM

Yes, and his gospel was this:

Acts 2:21, 36, 38-39
21 And it shall come to pass, [that] whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved. ...
36 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. ...
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, [even] as many as the Lord our God shall call.

So, we see from this some things worth considering, namely that Peter was speaking only to the house of Israel in close proximity and afar off, They had to repent and then be water baptized, and then they would receive Holy Spirit.

Consider also that water baptism was still in force at that time as a part of the Kingdom Gospel, found nowhere in Paul's instructions to anyone from within the Gospel of Grace. Although many were still baptized to whom Paul preached, it was not required as it was under the instructions the eleven spoke for some time thereafter to Israel only since the apostles at that time, in that grouping, were assigned to preach only to Israel, not even Samaritans, who were mixes like many of us today.

MM

No. Many confess with their lip service to the Lord, but their hearts are far from the Lord:

Isaiah 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near [me] with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

Words save nobody. The sinner's prayer saves nobody. Given that it is the heart the Lord looks upon, all other is meaningless when the heart is not set upon faith.

That's a rudiment of extreme Calvinism, not the scriptures. When one is born again, and is therefore made a new creation, they do not ever revert back into the old, and they do not become unsealed from Holy Spirit. I asked many times who here had ever lost their salvation, or who out there they think they knew lost theirs, and only a couple had anything to say in response, never providing anything of substance to back up those concepts. They never could show to me where Paul ever wrote that unsealing from Holy Spirit was at all possible, or that anyone who truly was of the faith ever departed, and thus becoming unborn again and unsealed.

I can't say that I understand the assumptions you're making, but you appear to be dead set upon them no matter what anyone else says or shows to you. The seal upon us as true believers who have faith, it's not like a wax seal upon a scroll or letter. Whatever you envision as the seal upon your life, that's between you and the Lord, but I dare you show to me anything thereby one can become unsealed under the Gospel of Grace, which did not require water baptism, but only to believe upon the crucifixion of Christ, His burial and His resurrection on the third day.

There are VERY good reasons why this is true, but most don't want to hear it because they think that they also must do works legitimize or solidify faith, the preachers of which are accursed, as Paul stated:

Galatians 1:8-9
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any [man] preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Paul was good at ensuring people understood the emphasis when repeating himself like that. He's serious, and so all those groups out there who add to Paul's Gospel the idea and requirement of works or anything else, they are accursed...every one of them.

MM

Well, enjoy the back-patting and guffaw from your little friends, because it appears you all have forgotten this:

Matthew 15:24 But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

That negates your thinking that the bride of Christ is the Church. What part of the Church being the BODY of Christ are you missing? As His Body, we are a part of the Groom, not the Bride. How can one be the Groom AND the Bride at the same time? When did scripture EVER show to us anything akin to the concept of marriage to one's own body?

You people really should stop this subjective forcing of meaning into places where it only causes you problems.

So, for now you can "Mwhaaaaaaaaa" on that for a while if you have half a mind to, or just continue believing in the meaning you have forced into those scriptures. I'm easy to get along with, and will leave you to believe whatever you want. After all, I'm not looking for a following to give their tithes to me like those wicked and evil men out there behind their pulpits. You proved nothing in your subjective use of those verses above, which prove nothing in support of your dogmas. A Theology 101 student could see through that at just a glance...

MM

MM

Are you not familiar that the parable of the ten virgins was spoken to ISRAEL? The Church did not even exist yet. Are you intentionally ignoring the fact that the Gospel message at that time did not even include the crucifixion of Christ, and His resurrection?

No, if anyone is misleading anyone else, it is the idea that Christ will marry His own Body. Pure nonsense. You're ignoring the fact that the LORD was ALREADY MARRIED to Israel. I would not be so quick to lay claim to believing that Christ is going to marry His own Body, which is a concept expressed nowhere in scripture, but is a concocted doctrine from the pits of Sheol.

That replacement theology nonsense to which you're pointing, it's just a doctrine of demons that really needs to be reconsidered by all who profess Christ Jesus. An as Israeli, I can say boldly that its pure, offensive garbage that is a creation and furtherance from wicked men like Augustine, Calvin, Luther and the like.

MM

Jesus also has another fold of sheep. And the 2 both become one...a new creation...neither Greek or Jew. This was the plan all along.