What Changed?

I have answered this before, but you just ignore answers that take away your talking points and repeat the same vain imaginations. You don't know how the minor stumblings, mistakes and imperfections of angels are dealt with in heaven. We are only told how full scale rebellion against God was dealt with.

I have not reasoned or said that 'God cannot be directing any of the steps of man here on earth because I think that would make Him the author of sin in man and, therefore, would violate man's"free" moral agency. That's you logical falla y straw man.

Wbere bas God promised that men will be sinless for all eternity?

I don't think God will violate the free moral agency of his saints and force them to never to sin? The saints will have knowledge of the pai
Nful history of the world corrupted by sin to safeguard them against contemplating wilful sin. They wk have the eveasting sacrifice of Christ as a path to quick reconciliation wben tbey err accidentally.

This should say -

I have answered this before, but you just ignore answers that take away your talking points and repeat the same vain imaginations. You don't know how the minor stumblings, mistakes and imperfections of angels are dealt with in heaven. We are only told how full scale rebellion against God was dealt with.

I have not reasoned or said that 'God cannot be directing any of the steps of man here on earth because I think that would make Him the author of sin in man and, therefore, would violate man's"free" moral agency."
That's you logical fallacy straw man.

Where has God promised that men will be sinless for all eternity?

I don't think God will violate the free moral agency of his saints and force them to never to sin? The saints will have knowledge of the painful history of the world corrupted by sin to safeguard them against contemplating wilful sin. They will have the everlasting sacrifice of Christ as a path to quick reconciliation if and when they err accidentally.

Are you serious with that question!? What in the world do you think the glorification of the saints, which will be the third and final stage of our redemption, means if not our moral-spiritual perfection? Don't you know that no sinner can dwell with God?

Ps 15
15:1 A psalm of David.
LORD, who may dwell in your sanctuary?
Who may live on your holy hill?
2 He whose walk is blameless
and who does what is righteous,
who speaks the truth from his heart
3 and has no slander on his tongue,
who does his neighbor no wrong
and casts no slur on his fellowman,
4 who despises a vile man
but honors those who fear the LORD,
who keeps his oath
even when it hurts,
5 who lends his money without usury
NIV

Don't you know that ONLY the RIGHTEOUS will inherit the kingdom of God? Nothing impure will enter heaven, let alone dwell in the presence of God in his sanctuary (Rev 21:27; 22:15). The white robes the saints will be given will represent our perfect, pure, spotless, sinless state (Rev 6:11), just as Jesus' white robe represents his. But all sinners will be forever banished (Rev 21:8, 27).

And in the New Eternal Order, all the saints' minds and memories will be renewed, which doesn't mean the saints won't recall anything from the Old Order, there is a clear sense that seems to teach they won't remember anything they did that didn't bring glory to God, or won't remember anything that they should have done that would have brought glory to Him, or won't remember any loved ones who rejected Christ in their lives.

Rev 21:4
4 He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away."
NIV

If the saints had memories of the kinds of things I stated in my last paragraph, then there would certainly be plenty of mourning, crying and pain, which would render their existence in the New Order far from perfect!

What is the point to the New Creation (New Order) if sin is not abolished forever? Then what is really new: "accidental" sin? There's plenty of that on earth among the saints, already! David even prayed to God to reveal his hidden sins -- sins he wasn't aware of (Ps 19:12)! So...the New Order will be same ol', same ol'? And if secret sins will exist in it, why not willful transgressions?

The scripture tells us that the redemption of the body, when the mortal puts on immortality and we have a body like his glorious body is glorification:the final stage of redemption, the glorification of the saints. It does not say moral spiritual perfection is what glorification means.

Php. 3: 20For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:
21Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.

1 Cor. 15;:35¶But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39¶All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40¶There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42¶So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
45And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46¶Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

1¶For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
2For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
3If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.
4For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.
5Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.


4When Christ, who is our life, shall appear [in glorified flesh], then shall ye also appear [in glorified flesh]with him in glory.
5¶Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:
6For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:
7In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.
8¶But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.
9Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
10And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
11Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
12¶Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
13Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
14And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

In this vile body, we put on our soul the spiritual characteristics of Christ by faith and submitted wills. That process does not need to change into some imposed inability to sin in heaven. We can do it willingly now more and more as we are being transformed by the renewing of our minds. It will be so much easier to do willingly when we no longer know in part and our mind is exposed directly to the spiritual realities we feel after now with faith, and we see those truths clearly.

Don't you know that we are not under the old covenant in Christ? Christian sinners dwell with God now through his mercy brstowed through his death and resurrection. Are you not abiding in Him and He in you right now, mister sinner?

Don't you know that repentance repentance from sins and faith toward God cleanse away sins? Don't you know Jesus blood is everlastingly effective in restoring men to God when they sin? Don't you know there is no expiry date on Christ's priesthood but he has an everlasting priesthood and ever lives to make intercession for sinners? What is to prevent a saint in the millenium who makes a mistake being clean enough to enter God's temple after sinning if the blood of Christ and He as priest can instsntly forgive and purify ?

Not necessarily. You imagine that. You reason that with your human finite mind. I can even now remember past sins and trauma without any tears snd mourning, because I have applied the grace of Jesus Christ to them. The memory of them gives me wisdom. What testimony will an ex-whoremongerer have in the kingdom of heaven to glorify God with, if he does not remember any of his sins. All our testimonies will be the same. I forget why exactly I needed saving, I just arrived here but have amnesia concerning my past.

The psalm I quoted has nothing to do with the Old Covenant. It speaks to eternally dwelling with God in his literal presence, which we do not do now.

Also, you conveniently forget that the "redemption of our bodies" is precisely that for which the whole creation groans for its liberation from its bondage to decay which will occur at the general resurrection (Rom 8:18-25). Of course this "bondage to decay" is alluding to the three-fold curse that God decreed upon the whole earth after the Fall. The resurrected saints will indeed live perfect, holy, righteous, sinless lives forever because after Christ recreates all things new, scripture tells us that the curse, which occurred due to sin entered the world, will be lifted forever (Rev 22:8).

That is in this age! There is no sin in the next one.

Introduction
============

Since the doctrine of Glorification has been broached recently, and there's at least one here who does not believe that the ultimate goal of glorification itself is the final transformation of the resurrected saints from the spiritual condition of sinner to the eternal condition of pure holy sainthood and sinless perfection in the New Eternal Order whereby each and every saint will become just like Christ, this motivated me to write a rebuttal to that unbiblical position. If so much as one scintilla of sin, which PT white-washed with the euphemism of mere "mistake" (which I guess could be characterized Sin-Lite) that conveniently comes about accidentally, inadvertently or unconsciously, then at the end of the day Satan gets the last laugh on God, his Christ and their saints. After all, sin was introduced into this universe by Satan and it gets to linger on forever, apparently, in the New Order, even though we know that a little bit of leaven leavens the whole lump (Gal 5:9). If Mr. PT is right, then God is powerless to defeat sin once and for all, even though scripture says that one of the goals for Christ in his First Advent was to destroy the works of the devil (1Jn 3:8). While, admittedly, there is no explicit teaching in scripture that says the resurrected saints in the New Order will innately be as holy and righteous as their Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is, nonetheless this is the only reasonable deduction to be made from the preponderance of evidence that strongly suggests otherwise from a large body of scripture. And Scripture speaks to the New Creation in a physical and spiritual sense: In terms of new heavens and new earth (Isa 65:17) and in terms of God's elect redeemed people (2Cor 5:17), respectively. In short, God's good, righteous and holy intentions in the original creation, for both this world and his image-bearers, will ultimately come to fruition at the end of this age when Christ returns to resurrect the living and the dead and to righteously judge both groups; for nothing in this universe can thwart God's purposes (Job 42:2).

Because of the size of this post, the argument itself will follow separate and we'll examine the Word of God on this important topic, first from the physical perspective and then from the spiritual one.

New Heavens and New Earth
=========================

It's clear from scripture that God intends to restore this world to both its physical and moral pristine order, when in the beginning, before sin entered the world, all the world everything in it were characterized as "very good" (Gen 1:31). But God will not only restore the earth to its original Edenic glory, he will make it even more glorious; for the Garden of Eden will cover the entire planet, as the New Jerusalem (the Bride of Christ) will occupy all the earth (Rev 21), and the water of life will flow from God's throne (which well be here on earth!) to the four corners of this earth (Rev 22). Also, all of God's saints (i.e Abraham's descendants) will not inherit just what was the Land of Canaan in the OT, but the entire earth will be the new "Promised Land" (Rom 4:13).

We can know that sin will have no presence whatsoever in the New Order, for all the dark consequences of sin will be entirely abolished forever, e.g. death, pain, misery, sorrow, mourning, tears -- all these things that sin caused; for the old order of things will have passed away and all things will be made new (Rev 21:4-5). There are never any good consequences to sin itself. Sin can only bring suffering, death, misery and other maladies. Only God has shown us from the scripture that he's much greater than sin, for he often brought good out of evil in this fallen world -- something that he will never have to do in the New Order.

The fact that there will be no more physical death anywhere in the new earth is highly significant and speaks strongly for God's good intentions for his New Creation. God will even revert back the nostril-breathing carnivores in the animal kingdom to their original, pre-cursed herbivore natures (Isa 11:6-9). No saint will ever mourn over the loss of a beloved pet, nor fear attacks from wild beasts!

God will not only protect his saints from wild and ferocious beasts, but will protect them from each other! Mankind will no longer learn war; for they will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks (Isa 2:4). All the saints will coexist peacefully. (Wow! How different it will be in the New Order from the way things were when the Israelites went into the Land and God taught them the art of warfare so that they could conquer their enemies and occupy it, cf. Judg 3:2). It will be so peaceful and blissful on this new earth, there will be no gates built around the New Jerusalem to keep anyone out because the earth will never see darkness again, nor will anything impure enter therein -- not even anyone guilty of any tiny "mistake" or "misstep"(Rev 21:25).

And God will lovingly protect all his saints from any bad or sorrowful memories -- from anything that would mar their perfect, blissful, peaceful, harmonious existence in the New Order by erasing all such memories -- and even more than that...by not even permitting any negative, uncomfortable thoughts to ever enter any saint's mind (Isa 65:17).

The Redeemed In Christ are also God's New Creation
===================================================

It is written that if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation (2Cor 5:17). Of course, this occurs spiritually at the New Birth when a believer is justified by faith and has Christ's righteousness imputed to him and, of course, of the new birth continues to grow in the grace and knowledge of the Lord through the process of sanctification. However, no saint ever attains to moral perfection (sinlessness) in this life precisely because his body has not been redeemed -- only his spirit has! Since man is both -- consisting of immaterial and material parts that are fully integrated -- then no saint is actually made whole (complete) in body and soul until the resurrection. This is precisely why the whole creation (physical world being personified) in Rom 8:18-21 "has been groaning as in childbirth pains up to the present time", for it longs for the redemption of the saints' bodies as well, as do the saints themselves who patiently wait for it as they struggle with the "flesh" in this life! The creation is waiting for them to finally be made whole because once they are the curse will be lifted from this earth (Rev 22:3). There will be no more curse because there will be no more death. And there won't be death any longer because there will be no more sin which was the cause of both!

But we don't have to rely just on our deductive reasoning powers to reach this logical conclusion about the fate of sin. Sin will share its destiny with its unrepentant, unbelieving practitioners in the Lake of Fire! Sin will not haunt, stalk or crouch at the door of any saint in the New Order, for the eternal destiny of the saints is to be just like Christ -- in body and in spirit(1Jn 2:2-3). In fact, the saints' sanctification itself involves an ongoing transformation process into the likeness of Christ (2Cor 3:18). Being conformed to the likeness of Christ (physically and spiritually) was predestined for God's elect in eternity and that transformation will be completed when the saints are glorified at their resurrection. (Rom 8:29-30). And one of the most stunning statements about this transformation, spoken in the context of the resurrection, is when Paul said that just as the Corinthian saints bore the likeness of the earthly man (Adam) in the earthly/natural body they have in this world, so too they will bear the likeness of the [Last Adam] when they have his heavenly/spiritual body (1Cor 15:42-49). Since they were also like Adam spiritually as sinners, then it stands to reason they will be like Christ spiritually and be as inherently righteous as he is.

The resurrection passage in 1Cor 15 is one of the main reasons I believe that Adam's sin affected him and his entire progeny physiologically. Sin likely triggered the decay mechanism in the body that was irreversible and is the cause of man's inevitable physical death. The passage talks about how flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor can "perishable" inherit the imperishable (1Cor 15:50). The Gr. term rendered "perishable" is "phthora" (Strong's 5356) which means "decay, ruin" and the term is often rendered "corruption". It stands to reason that since man's earthly body became corrupt by sin that the heavenly body the saints will receive will be free of any corruption, and our human nature will be perfectly holy, righteous and good because God will be living in his saints and the saints will be living in his Temple (i.e. Himself). No longer will any saint be able to say, as Paul once did, that there is "no good thing in me (i.e. "in my flesh" (Rom 7:18). Rather, as Paul also put it "the entire creation will be liberated from its bondage to decay and be brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God" (Rom 8:21). And what is this freedom, ultimately, if not freedom from sin!? To be free from any and all corruption, from the curse and from death is precisely to be eternally free from the cause of all these!

Additionally, there is more solid evidence that sin adversely affected man physiologically, and that those adverse affects, while not reversible in this age, can be mitigated, promote overall well-being, good health and increase longevity when a godly disposition is present in the heart, such as having the fear of the Lord within (Prov 3:8) and by closely heeding Spiritual Truth (Prov 4:22).

Summary
=======

We have seen that from the very beginning God always intended after the Fall to completely abolish sin and reverse all its negative affects by creating anew the heavens and the earth and spiritually recreating his elect here in this age via the New Birth and on the Last Day physically recreating them with spiritual bodies at the General Resurrection. On that Day, all the saints will be finally and completely and totally restored to the likeness of Jesus Christ -- in body and in spirit! In the New Eternal Order, we have seen that all pain, suffering, misery, tears and death will totally be eliminated and that the curse that is upon this world currently will also be abolished. Life in the New Order will peaceful and blissful and all creation will be at harmony. Even all the wild beasts and carnivores will return to their original herbivore state. Men will no longer learn war. The saints will inherit the entire world, which itself will be restored to the pristine condition of the Garden of Eden. Therefore, God's original intentions for his created image-bearers will be fully realized upon the return of his Beloved Son who will resurrect the living and the dead and judge both groups as well.

I decided to follow Jesus, but God was drawing me to himself at the same time. Ephesians 2:1-3 says that we are born dead in our sins, and it takes God to make us alive through faith by grace alone (verses 4-9) so that we can do resulting good works (verse 10).

Sorry for the delay in response to your post. I have not been very active lately! However, you are correct! When we are made alive, even the faith required is a gift. It does come from within us, but is provided by the Holy Spirit.
Now that is indeed grace!

AMEN to that, brother! But so many professing Christians don't want to believe that because to believe that clearly implies that when God graciously called us into his Kingdom of Light we were helpless and hopeless until he raised his people from their spiritual tombs.

Moreover, the doctrine of Unconditional Election itself is the most humbling truth of all since God chose us in our deplorable, vile, depraved condition, which means there was nothing in us whatsoever to merit such love and grace. There's never a day that goes by that I do not wonder at such Amazing Grace and why he would choose a wretched worm like myself to set his affections upon.

Without grace shutting down our sin nature, so our soul could be freed up to choose?

We would always reject the faith that God is giving us!


That is how we are saved by grace!

For our Faith comes by hearing the Word of God! (Romans 10:17)

I am not sure what your point is! Yes, we must hear the word of God! How else would we know of him. But it also remains true that we are corrupt and incapable of making the correct choice. Only the Spirit of God can change our heart and instill a faith within us so that we answer when he effectually calls us! Therefore, there is no room to boast!

This was my point....

For the flesh craves what is contrary to the Spirit,
and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh.
They are opposed to each other, so that you do not
do what you want." Galatians 5:17

Unless God deals with your flesh while hearing the Gospel?
You will not be able to believe.

For it's with your soul alone that you believe, if you want to believe.
God's saves your soul, not your body.

That is why we must be given grace in order to believe.
Grace is God's power to make us able to be what He wants us to be.

Now? If grace is holding down someone's flesh while hearing the Gospel?.
And, their sin nature can not interfere?
They are still free not to believe...
Since the sin nature had been taken out of the equation when being presented the Gospel?
That choice to reject? Can not be from the sin nature.
What it ends up being the source for their rejection? Evil!
That is what Satan rejected the Lord from. Evil!

Jesus died for our sins.
Jesus could not die for Evil...


In Christ,, grace and peace .

Grace shutting down your sin nature?

That is not grace. That is selection.. Based on whatever God deems fit..


Thats interesting since Paul said we still struggle with our sin nature (self righteousness) even after we are saved.

5 minutes in hell, with no hope for eternity, would clear that "unconditional" election myth right up for you. God set his affections upon all wretched worms. He didn't want them to go to hell.
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16 (KJV)

Learning daily to be dead to first birth daily, to be alive in God's Spirit and truth as a new habit, that turns to Characteristic then trait we are new and love all as God does too thank you