What Changed?

God judged Job as "darkening counsel by words without knowledge". How is that not judging Job an unreliable source of truth?

Job 38:1 Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,

2 Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?

That's only your own opinion...
And, it meant to manipulate me not to respond to your nonsense.

Nope. It was straightforward. If you weren't proud and need to have the last word, you would have simply moved on.

It's funny. I've done the same exercise with a number of people on this site. They all had what they thought were excellent reasons for responding, just like you. But what it really evidenced is exactly what I've shared with you all along: pride.

Ironically, you are very proud of your getting results.

Actually, it's saddening to watch. Someone spends so much time and effort studying and learning and now has something worth enough value to share and profit others, but never learned how to speak and act according to love. They merely clang.
Hopefully, you'll learn that people are more important than yourself, and that dying to self is what produces life both for yourself and others.
As you don't seem to be able to receive what I've shared, I'll refrain from further discussion. But I truly do desire your good. Grace and peace.

And how do you reconcile that with:

Job 42:7
7 After the LORD had said these things to Job, he said to Eliphaz the Temanite, "I am angry with you and your two friends, because you have not spoken of me what is right, as my servant Job has.
NIV

Oh...I know...you just don't. You ignore the larger context and pretend the above passage isn't there. This is how you justify your perverse interpretation.

I explained previously what God meant when he told Job that he "darkens counsel without knowledge". Job's sin in the midst of his afflictions was self-righteousness. Job justified himself and this is why he wanted to confront God. He wanted his day in court to vindicate himself before his Creator. Job forgot, in the midst of his suffering, that even though he was essentially and substantially a faithful, righteous servant of God, he was still a sinner and, therefore, God was the one who was justified in permitting Satan to afflict him !

Eccl 7:20
20 Indeed, there is not a righteous man on earth who continually does good and who never sins.
NASB

Context, friend.

42 Then Job answered the Lord, and said,

2 I know that thou canst do every thing, and that no thought can be withholden from thee.

3 Who is he that hideth counsel without knowledge? therefore have I uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not.

4 Hear, I beseech thee, and I will speak: I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.

5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.

6 Wherefore I abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.

7 And it was so, that after the Lord had spoken these words unto Job, the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite, My wrath is kindled against thee, and against thy two friends: for ye have not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.

God did not commend Job for his many diatribes: things uttered that he understood not; things too wonderful for him, which he knew not.

God commended Job for this one thing (statement) here. You should not be using Job"s earlier foolish counsel to support your theology. When you do, you are also darkening counsel. expressing words without knowledge.

Mr. Genez and I recently had some brief exchanges regarding the heart of man. At one point, he commented that "the heart is part of the mind", which is actually backwards of the biblical reality. The mind, along with the other three faculties, are situated in the heart. Therefore, the mind is part of the heart -- part of the essence of man. God doesn't give his NC people just a new mind -- but a new heart in which all the faculties reside. Likewise, scripture doesn't teach that just man's mind is deceitful, wicked, vile, sinful and depraved, but that the whole heart is! I offer these passages for readers' consideration regarding all the faculties that reside in manh's heart:

The Mind:

Gen 6:5
5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
NASB

Matt 9:4 / cf. Mk 7:21-23
4 Knowing their thoughts, Jesus said, "Why do you entertain evil thoughts in your hearts?
NIV

Prov 23:7
7 For as he thinks within himself, so he is.
He says to you, "Eat and drink!"
But his heart is not with you.
NASB

Jer 4:14
14 O Jerusalem, wash the evil from your heart and be saved.
How long will you harbor wicked thoughts?
NIV

The Volition:

Ex 25:2
2 "Tell the sons of Israel to raise a contribution for Me; from every man whose heart moves him you shall raise My contribution.
NASB

Ex 35:5
5 'Take from among you a contribution to the Lord; whoever is of a willing heart, let him bring it as the Lord's contribution: gold, silver, and bronze...
NASB

2 Kings 12:4
4 Then Jehoash said to the priests, "All the money of the sacred things which is brought into the house of the Lord, in current money, both the money of each man's assessment and all the money which any man's heart prompts him to bring into the house of the Lord,
NASB

Passions:

1 Sam 2:1a
2:1 Then Hannah prayed and said:

"My heart rejoices in the LORD;
in the LORD my horn is lifted high.
NIV

Prov 15:15
15 All the days of the oppressed are wretched,
but the cheerful heart has a continual feast.
NIV


1 Sam 1:8
8 Elkanah her husband would say to her, "Hannah, why are you weeping? Why don't you eat? Why are you downhearted? Don't I mean more to you than ten sons?"
NIV

Conscience:

1 Sam 24:4-5
4 And the men of David said to him, "Here is the day of which the Lord said to you, 'Behold, I will give your enemy into your hand, and you shall do to him as it shall seem good to you.'" Then David arose and stealthily cut off a corner of Saul's robe. 5 And afterward David's heart struck him, because he had cut off a corner of Saul's robe.
ESV

Acts 2:37
37 When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, "Brothers, what shall we do?"
NIV

1 John 3:19-20
19 This then is how we know that we belong to the truth, and how we set our hearts at rest in his presence 20 whenever our hearts condemn us. For God is greater than our hearts, and he knows everything.
NIV

So...when scripture teaches that man's heart is filled with sin, wickedness, evil, corruption, etc., it's telling us that the WHOLE man is depraved. Sin infects more than just a man's mind; it infects (and affects) God's image in man. Sin mars and perverts that image. And there is not a thing man can do about this. This is a God-sized problem, as we'll soon see, hopefully, as we take another look at the doctrine of Total Depravity.

Nope, I showed earlier (weeks ago) that Job waxed self-righteous and in his self-righteousness (sin), he uttered things that he did not understand. He actually wanted to justify himself before his Holy and Righteous Creator. Job clearly felt that he didn't deserve his afflictions, which he knew would have never happened apart from God's will. And for this, Job repented in dust and ashes.

You showed no such thing. You asserted something based on isolating one verse from Job's confession in 42;1-7 and reading a confession of self-righteousness and total depravity into it. You ignored everything from Job Ch. 38 onwards.

Mark 10:18-22
18 And Jesus said to him, "Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone . 19 You know the commandments: 'Do not murder, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.'" 20 And he said to him, "Teacher, all these I have kept from my youth." 21 And Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, "You lack one thing: go, sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me." 22 Disheartened by the saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.
ESV

Jesus in this passage corrects a presumptuous rich man. The man was presumptuous on two levels. First, he considered Jesus just another one of Israel's teachers (rabbis), albeit a "good" one. He did not know that Jesus was the promised and long-awaited Messiah. Jesus was just a man...albeit, again, a "good" one. This fact is what prompted Jesus to correct this rich man's error. He does this in two ways. First, he cuts to the chase and tells him that the only truly and supremely good Being in the universe is God. This is Jesus' first vertical level correction.

But He doesn't stop there. Jesus continues his "full court press" on the same level by quoting parts of the Ten Commandments -- the Law that came directly from God above through Moses to the Israelites. Clearly, in Jesus' mind he defined "good" in terms of man's obedience to God's Holy Law! We should not miss this fact, as one here especiallyh has!

Now, look how the rich man responds: He claimed that he kept all those commandments from his youth. He just as clearly thought of himself as being "good" because he believed himself to be perfectly faithful to God by keeping His law. In other words, he clearly believed about himself that he has SERVED God faithfully! With this thought firmly in mind, let's proceed.

With this kind of reply, Jesus continues to press him to the point whereby he finally broke this self-righteous man! When Jesus told him that "you [still] lack one thing", we should not construe those words as meaning that this man was 99% sure of getting to heaven. We should not think that Jesus was telling him, "you have one foot in heaven already...and you'll have the other one in if you just do this one more thing." No! After all, no one is really conscious of all their "hidden" sins -- sins tucked away in their subsconciousness that may never get confessed (Ps 19:12), except by a most sensitive conscience. Jesus used the words he did to cut to to the chase because he knew the hearts of all men. He knew what this guy's Achilles' Heel was! Jesus knew what this rich man's god really was: MONEY! And scripture tells us that the love of money is the root of all manner of evil (1Tim 6:10). Therefore, it's very safe to conclude that this rich man had a huge stash of evil thoughts, words and deeds of which he was not even aware! It was all suppressed in the deepest and darkest recesses of his depraved heart! For one thing, he could not truly SERVE God and money, for he'll wind up loving one master (money) and hating the other Master (God), cf. Mat 6:24. Therefore, it's easy to see (for all who have such eyes) this man was totally oblivious to the fact that he was covetous, an idolater, greedy and of course a violater of the First and Greatest Commandment of all -- AND that all his law-keeping in which he was so proudly confident was for nought because he didn't keep the law to glorify and honor God. This poor rich man was a poster child for Jer 17:9 that speaks to the utterly deceitful hearts of men! This man, prior to his encouter with Jesus, had no clue whatsoever of his true spiritual condition! And this fact is a sobering and even downright frightening truth. It's akin to being fatally sick physically and never knowing it until it's too late! Imagine never being aware of that condition until its too late to do anything! This to me defines "helpless" or "powerless", which is precisely how scripture portrays sinners! This rich man desperately was in need of divine rescuing!

How can anyone here with a modicum of honesty in their hearts see this man as a helpless sinner in dire need of divine rescuing!?

Another very important takeaway from this passage is that any number of pet sins in which men find their delight could fill the blanks after Jesus' words, "this one thing you lack..." It could be anything. Love of illicit sex, pornography, drugs, alchol, pedophilia, violence, illicit gain, etc., etc.. This passage applies to EVERYONE! In fact, just the other day, I read an article in the Christian Post that polled Christians on the question of pornography. Very sadly, over 50% of the respondents believed it was not sinful to enjoy porn. Is anyone here going to tell me that such people are not self-deceived!? Is anyone going to make the case that such people can love their porn and love God too!?

Also, this passage illustrates Paul's teaching in Gal 5:9! "A little bit ("you lack one thing") of leaven leavens the entire (or TOTAL) loaf. And this truth will serve as the springboard for my next post, Lord willing.

Yes, I have. I cited or quoted several passages throughout Job when I intially dealt with this topic several weeks ago. When I find time, I will search my files and give you the thread and the post number(s). All you're doing is projecting your own dishonest practices unto me.

Mr. Thompson, sir, see my 259 written on 10/04 in the "God's will v. Man's will" thread regarding your low view of Job.

You have your technique for going after those whom you find you are resenting.
And, its designed to stir up others to bond with you whom might share your same feelings.

My pastor gave a very good message on the subject today.
Because of your attitude, it caused me to extra concentrate on what he taught.
So, thank you.

Insightful.
I find this at work and here somewhat, important to be aware of. Thanks.

If you find this insightful, your discernment is as poor as his.

That is why we need to be born again. When we are baptized in the name of the Holy Spirit, the Father and Son fill our being with their presence to fill our hearts with the same love that they share so that our motivation for living is changed from love of self first to love of God first and all others as we love ourselves. That is how we obey the two commandments that Jesus left us with, upon which all the other commandments are based. The Father chooses, through the Son we get our sins erased when we believe, and through the Holy Spirit when, as John the baptist said, Jesus will baptize with the Holy Spirit (a portal through which the Father and Son enter our beings) and fill us with divine love in order to perfect us.That is also how a person gets baptized in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. All who get baptized in the name of the Holy Spirit will experience this love and the desire to please the Father and, just like Jesus, make our bread obeying the Father's will in love.

Probably all involved are born again.

God judges the hearts of men. He doesn't have to judge the works because with a perfect heart, righteous works will follow.