What Changed?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
P

PaulThomson

Well-known member
#841
Oct 29, 2023
3,403
434
83
#841
Cameron143 said:
I do, if by total depravity one means every facet of man.
The problem with discussing such things is often found in the terminology applied and the different definitions each applies.
It would be better either to use biblical terminology or give definitions before a discussion.
Another problem that arises is the insistence upon labels.
Click to expand...
No. You do not believe that men are totslly depraved.

Totally:
completely; absolutely.
"the building was totally destroyed by the fire"

Depraved:
morally corrupt; wicked.

You believe every facet of man is imperfect; not that every face of man is absolutely completely morally corrupt/depraved/evil/icked.
 
P

PaulThomson

Well-known member
#842
Oct 29, 2023
3,403
434
83
#842
PaulThomson said:
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbour. Show one example of me culling a scripture. Disagreeing with your interpretation of a scripture and offering an alternative contextualised interpretation, is not "culling" it.

Rufus said:
That's exactly what you did with passages like Jer 17:9 and/or Isa 1:5-6 because these passages strongly support the biblical doctrine of Total Depravity. You basically accused me of interpreting them out of context by saying that those passages only applied to apostate, rebellious Israel, thereby clearly implying that the entire non-covenant pagan world was more righteous than Israel! I countered your allegations by pointing to the antediluvian world and asking if the people at that time, whose "thoughts and intentions of their hearts were continually evil" were more righteous than Israel? Is that why God destroyed virtually the entire human race -- because the antediluvians were more righteous, more spiritual than Israel? The pagans were less hostile toward their Creator? I also recall appealing to the postdiluvian world with Ps 2: 1-6, since the entire world is at enmity with God.

And even more recently you most certainly tried to "cull" Job's unflattering words about the human race by totally discrediting him, clearly implying that Job's words could not be trusted by citing Job 38:2 Yet, not even God went to that extreme when he spoke of his faithful servant (Job 42:7). So, in order to discredit Job, you interpreted 38:2 out of its larger context.

It seems that you have a selectively short memory as well.
Click to expand...
Cull:
reduce the population of (a wild animal) by selective slaughter.
"he sees culling deer as a necessity".

You cited verses from Jeremiah out of context. I added context and justified a different interpretation from yours. That is not "culling".

I added chapters of context around Job 38:2. You are being very dishonest to say I interpreted it out of its larger context.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#843
Mar 1, 2022
18,460
6,380
113
62
#843
PaulThomson said:
No. You do not believe that men are totslly depraved.

Totally:
completely; absolutely.
"the building was totally destroyed by the fire"

Depraved:
morally corrupt; wicked.

You believe every facet of man is imperfect; not that every face of man is absolutely completely morally corrupt/depraved/evil/icked.
Click to expand...
I rest my case. I believe the totality of man was corrupted by sin. I also believe his nature has been corrupted to the point where he is slave to his fallen nature and unable to do anything "good" as God defines good.
 
Magenta

Magenta

Senior Member
#844
Jul 3, 2015
59,499
28,845
113
#844
Cameron143 said:
I rest my case. I believe the totality of man was corrupted by sin. I also believe his nature has been corrupted to the point where he is slave to his fallen nature and unable to do anything "good" as God defines good.
Click to expand...
That is certainly what the Bible teaches...
 
Genez

Genez

Junior Member
#846
Oct 12, 2017
2,558
373
83
#846
Cameron143 said:
I rest my case. I believe the totality of man was corrupted by sin. I also believe his nature has been corrupted to the point where he is slave to his fallen nature and unable to do anything "good" as God defines good.
Click to expand...
You are just not getting what was said.

If you were totally depraved?
What could God save of you?

For some reason...
It's only our soul He saves.
Not our body.
Can you figure out why that is?

There is a divine logic behind it.

Our souls are not innately depraved.
They end up being as depraved, because until Grace jumps in the soul is enslaved to the flesh.
It's in the flesh where man's depravity has it's roots.

And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. ​
As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. ​
For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my flesh. ​
For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. ​
For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do​
—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no ​
longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. Romans 7:16-20​


Paul differentiated between his flesh, and his real self (his soul).

As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. ​

In Christ ...............
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#847
Mar 1, 2022
18,460
6,380
113
62
#847
Genez said:
You are just not getting what was said.

If you were totally depraved?
What could God save of you?

For some reason...
It's only our soul He saves.
Not our body.
Can you figure out why that is?

There is a divine logic behind it.

Our souls are not innately depraved.
They end up being as depraved, because until Grace jumps in the soul is enslaved to the flesh.
It's in the flesh where man's depravity has it's roots.

And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. ​
As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. ​
For I know that good itself does not dwell in me, that is, in my flesh. ​
For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. ​
For I do not do the good I want to do, but the evil I do not want to do​
—this I keep on doing. Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no ​
longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. Romans 7:16-20​


Paul differentiated between his flesh, and his real self (his soul).

As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. ​

In Christ ...............
Click to expand...
You are alot like him...neither of you believe anyone can understand anything that is different from what you believe.
 
R

Rufus

Well-known member
#850
Feb 17, 2024
2,149
233
63
#850
PaulThomson said:
Limited Atonement
Omni-faceted Imperfection
Unnconditional Election
Perseveranc eof the Saints
Irresistible Grace

No one actually believes in Total Depravity.
Click to expand...
Which means that most believe they are not helpless and in a hopeless, and that there is something good in them. God help such people who call evil good and good evil!
PaulThomson said:
You believe God decreed from eternity past that Israel would rebel and spend 40 years being culled of an almost an entire generation and there was nothing the Israelites could do to change God's decree. You are being so dishonest here,
Click to expand...
We have discussed God's decrees and man's responsibility previously. The ancient Israelites knew good from evil and willingly sinned. Judas was destined to betray Christ in eternity, yet after his dastardly deed he neither blamed God or the devil who possessed him, but rather was overcome with his own very real personal guilt. He KNEW he had sinned against Jesus! You keep ignoring the fact that all the actors on God's world stage WILLINGLY play the parts that God, the Playwright and Director has assigned for them.
 
R

Rufus

Well-known member
#851
Feb 17, 2024
2,149
233
63
#851
PaulThomson said:
PaulThomson said:
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbour. Show one example of me culling a scripture. Disagreeing with your interpretation of a scripture and offering an alternative contextualised interpretation, is not "culling" it.



Cull:
reduce the population of (a wild animal) by selective slaughter.
"he sees culling deer as a necessity".

You cited verses from Jeremiah out of context. I added context and justified a different interpretation from yours. That is not "culling".

I added chapters of context around Job 38:2. You are being very dishonest to say I interpreted it out of its larger context.
Click to expand...
You added selective passages and none of the passages were the one I used to support my argument. You basically condemned Job as being an unreliable source of truth -- something God himself did not do.

And I did not quote verses from Jeremiah or any other book out of context -- unless you don't believe the Jews are part of humanity. Do you believe that Jews put on their pants differently from the rest of us?
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#856
Mar 1, 2022
18,460
6,380
113
62
#856
Genez said:
For someone who condemns it openly...

You sure do a lot of judging.
Click to expand...
And you receive alot. Doesn't judgment come back to those who judge?
Your discernment is poor, and you lack self awareness of your shortcomings. This is a symptom of pride.
 
Genez

Genez

Junior Member
#857
Oct 12, 2017
2,558
373
83
#857
Cameron143 said:
And you receive alot. Doesn't judgment come back to those who judge?
Your discernment is poor, and you lack self awareness of your shortcomings. This is a symptom of pride.
Click to expand...
Have peace..... No sense arguing with someone who wants to.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

Well-known member
#860
Mar 1, 2022
18,460
6,380
113
62
#860
Genez said:
You have done what you are doing to me also to others as well.

Its how you get triggered....
Click to expand...
If I'm wrong it's easy enough to show. Someone who is humble will have no problem not having the last word. Just don't answer this post.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.