Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit

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decipher

Member
#61
Jul 15, 2024
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#61
Isaiah 63: 9-10 tells us that His Holy Spirit is the "angel of His presence". He is refered to as an angel because he can be sent. Where the Holy Spirit is, the Father is there. The Almighty God has always existed, is everywhere, can do anything He wants, is all powerful, knows what you are thinking and feeling, and can create out of nothing, and is beyond time. The only way that this living, thinking, feeling being can have all this power in our reality is if our reality is in the mind of this being who is the Almighty God. An always existing God probably takes pleasure in creating many realities both physical and spiritual and puts living creatures in them. In our reality, before anything is created, He places a living, thinking, feeling, willful being in it and calls him His Son. The Almighty God the Father in His mind reacts with the realities He creates through His Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is a portal through which the Father can enter the being indwelled in order to communicate knowledge of His will, understanding, and empowerment to achieve His will. Our reality was created by the Father through His Son and for His Son. The Son is the temple of the Father because the Father resides in the Son through the Holy Spirit that fills His Son. The Son is the image of the invisible God the Father because the Father's presence is in His Son and His Son obeys because of the divine love that they share. When we get baptized by Christ and receive his Holy Spirit, we become temples of the Son who is the temple of the Father. The Father resides in His Son, and the Son resides in us through this portal called the Holy Spirit. Eph 2: 18 For through Him (Christ) we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. It is the Holy Spirit that connects us to the Father and Son, making us One with them (in their image) and part of the Father's family. Without the Holy Spirit, there is no connection.
That is why the Holy Spirit is so important.
 
homwardbound

homwardbound

Senior Member
#62
Oct 24, 2012
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#62
decipher said:
Isaiah 63: 9-10 tells us that His Holy Spirit is the "angel of His presence". He is refered to as an angel because he can be sent. Where the Holy Spirit is, the Father is there. The Almighty God has always existed, is everywhere, can do anything He wants, is all powerful, knows what you are thinking and feeling, and can create out of nothing, and is beyond time. The only way that this living, thinking, feeling being can have all this power in our reality is if our reality is in the mind of this being who is the Almighty God. An always existing God probably takes pleasure in creating many realities both physical and spiritual and puts living creatures in them. In our reality, before anything is created, He places a living, thinking, feeling, willful being in it and calls him His Son. The Almighty God the Father in His mind reacts with the realities He creates through His Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is a portal through which the Father can enter the being indwelled in order to communicate knowledge of His will, understanding, and empowerment to achieve His will. Our reality was created by the Father through His Son and for His Son. The Son is the temple of the Father because the Father resides in the Son through the Holy Spirit that fills His Son. The Son is the image of the invisible God the Father because the Father's presence is in His Son and His Son obeys because of the divine love that they share. When we get baptized by Christ and receive his Holy Spirit, we become temples of the Son who is the temple of the Father. The Father resides in His Son, and the Son resides in us through this portal called the Holy Spirit. Eph 2: 18 For through Him (Christ) we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. It is the Holy Spirit that connects us to the Father and Son, making us One with them (in their image) and part of the Father's family. Without the Holy Spirit, there is no connection.
That is why the Holy Spirit is so important.
Click to expand...
Only Father can reveal Son to you and anyone else as Dad sees fit to do, when it is time to see it.
Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
I see plumbing happening what?
Yes I have two copper pipes I have couplers to couple them each together, and make one line to the faucet to bring water to the house, living water to never thirst again.
Two pipes connected become one pipe, and the Coupler is the Holy Spirit that connects us as Won (One) with Father and Son amazing grace given us, never earned to keep or have it ever, just given it. A gift cannot be earned or used to keep the new given us to just love in the same love of mercy given us through Son for us to not fight in the flesh and blood anymore as did before being born new in God Father's Spirit and Truth of risen Son Jesus for us to be content in, thank you
 
G

GWH

Groovy
#63
Oct 19, 2024
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#63
GWH said:
Yes, and Hebrews 6:4-6 indicates that the unforgivable sin is intentional apostasy.
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So, harmonizing LK 12:10 with HB 6:4-6 we arrive at the interpretation that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is committing apostasy.
 
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PaulThomson

Well-known member
#64
Oct 29, 2023
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#64
GWH said:
Yes, and Hebrews 6:4-6 indicates that the unforgivable sin is intentional apostasy.
Click to expand...
There is no "UNFORGIVABLE" sin mentioned in scripture. "UNFORGIVABLE" does not occur in scripture.
 
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PaulThomson

Well-known member
#65
Oct 29, 2023
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#65
presidente said:


  • Presumably, someone could repent of refusing repentance and be forgiven. Did Saul of Tarsus 'kick against the pricks?'



    Can someone who has hardened his heart repent?

I take Matthew 12 as evidence that Christ's opponents were accusing the Holy Spirit of being Beelzebub.
Click to expand...
What were they doing according to Luke 12?
 
G

GWH

Groovy
#66
Oct 19, 2024
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#66
PaulThomson said:
There is no "UNFORGIVABLE" sin mentioned in scripture. "UNFORGIVABLE" does not occur in scripture.
Click to expand...
On the contrary, HB 6:4-6 says, "It is impossible for those... who have shared in the Holy Spirit... if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance...". IOW regarding " Presumably, someone could repent of refusing repentance and be forgiven", not twice!

This is why it is logical to interpret Jesus as referring to apostasy when he says in LK 12:10, "...anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven."
 
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presidente

Senior Member
#67
May 29, 2013
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#67
PaulThomson said:
What were they doing according to Luke 12?
Click to expand...
It doesn't say what Jesus' opponents were doing in relation to His teaching on blaspheming the Holy Spirit in that passage. We have to look at Matthew and Mark for that.
 
homwardbound

homwardbound

Senior Member
#68
Oct 24, 2012
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#68
GWH said:
So, harmonizing LK 12:10 with HB 6:4-6 we arrive at the interpretation that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is committing apostasy.
Click to expand...
start with Hebrews 5:12- Chapter 6. See Hebrews 6:3 "If God permits" that is for us to grow up
4-6 is talking about the cross is done, we are reconciled forgiven by God Farther through this done work of Son for us.
To ask foto God in risen Son for them, does not kick anyone out. To get more forgiveness is ludicrous, because one sinned again after belief is the same as to not believe "It is finished" John 19:30 as is said it is done once for everyone as in Hebrews 10:10
We are to go past the cross into the resurrection of Son for us, where new life gets installed in us, we are not doing the work any longer, God now is through us, The done work of Son for us to be able to be. new and love all over just the few we used to in our first birth
Maturity needed as 1 Cor. 3 talks about
 
CS1

CS1

Well-known member
#69
May 23, 2012
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#69
GWH said:
So, harmonizing LK 12:10 with HB 6:4-6 we arrive at the interpretation that blasphemy against the Holy Spirit is committing apostasy.
Click to expand...
does it say that?
 
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PaulThomson

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#70
Oct 29, 2023
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#70
presidente said:
It doesn't say what Jesus' opponents were doing in relation to His teaching on blaspheming the Holy Spirit in that passage. We have to look at Matthew and Mark for that.
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The context of Luke 12 must be enough for a reader of Luke's gospel to infer the meaning of blaspheming the Holy Spirit. What might someone with only Luke"s gospel infer from the context Luke 12 that blaspheming the Foly Spirit is?

8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:

9 But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.

10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.
 
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PaulThomson

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#71
Oct 29, 2023
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#71
GWH said:
On the contrary, HB 6:4-6 says, "It is impossible for those... who have shared in the Holy Spirit... if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance...". IOW regarding " Presumably, someone could repent of refusing repentance and be forgiven", not twice!

This is why it is logical to interpret Jesus as referring to apostasy when he says in LK 12:10, "...anyone who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven."
Click to expand...
The context of Heb. 6:4 - 6 nuances the meaning of 6:4 - 6.

6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

3 And this will we do, if God permit.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

Who is the "we"?
Impossible for whom?
What would be the difference if it had said, "It is impossible for them to be renewed to repentance" (which it does not say), instead of, "It is impossible to renew them gain to repentance" (which it does say) ?

What would be the difference between a teacher telling her class, " It is impossible to swallow a one metre long fish whole", versus " It is impossible for a one metre long fish to be swallowed whole" ?
 
CS1

CS1

Well-known member
#72
May 23, 2012
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#72
PaulThomson said:
The context of Heb. 6:4 - 6 nuances the meaning of 6:4 - 6.

6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

3 And this will we do, if God permit.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

Who is the "we"?
Impossible for whom?
What would be the difference if it had said, "It is impossible for them to be renewed to repentance" (which it does not say), instead of, "It is impossible to renew them gain to repentance" (which it does say) ?

What would be the difference between a teacher telling her class, " It is impossible to swallow a one metre long fish whole", versus " It is impossible for a one metre long fish to be swallowed whole" ?
Click to expand...
The issue is Christ is the only one who used the term " Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit."

In addition to this, the Greek also present an application of the meaning that One does not speak Blasphemy about the Holy Spirit but is equating or speaking of what is the work of the Holy Spirit or what the Holy Spirit has done as evil.

The Greek seems to say they did not speak bad of the Holy Spirit but of what is Clearly a work of the Holy Spirit
as being of the devil.

  1. sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his work and power (the Spirit of "Truth")
 
P

presidente

Senior Member
#73
May 29, 2013
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#73
PaulThomson said:
The context of Luke 12 must be enough for a reader of Luke's gospel to infer the meaning of blaspheming the Holy Spirit. What might someone with only Luke"s gospel infer from the context Luke 12 that blaspheming the Foly Spirit is?

8 Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confess before the angels of God:

9 But he that denieth me before men shall be denied before the angels of God.

10 And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.
Click to expand...
The word 'blasphemy' has an actual meaning, and so does the Greek word used in the passage from which our English word is likely derived. The word has to do with speaking against that which is holy. From a literary perspective it makes sense to place it here since this has to do with men's speech regarding that which is holy-- confessing Christ, versus denying Christ, then speaking against the Holy Spirit.
 
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presidente

Senior Member
#74
May 29, 2013
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#74
CS1 said:
The issue is Christ is the only one who used the term " Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit."

In addition to this, the Greek also present an application of the meaning that One does not speak Blasphemy about the Holy Spirit but is equating or speaking of what is the work of the Holy Spirit or what the Holy Spirit has done as evil.

The Greek seems to say they did not speak bad of the Holy Spirit but of what is Clearly a work of the Holy Spirit
as being of the devil.

  1. sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his work and power (the Spirit of "Truth")
Click to expand...
In Mark, they were accusing the Spirit behind Jesus casting out devils an unclean spirit, and in Matthew they are calling the Spirit behind Jesus casting out devils Beelzebub the prince of devils.
 
P

presidente

Senior Member
#75
May 29, 2013
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#75
homwardbound said:
start with Hebrews 5:12- Chapter 6. See Hebrews 6:3 "If God permits" that is for us to grow up
Click to expand...
I think the author is saying if God permits, he will continue teaching beyond the elemental teachings he mentioned onto more advanced topics.
 
CS1

CS1

Well-known member
#76
May 23, 2012
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#76
presidente said:
In Mark, they were accusing the Spirit behind Jesus casting out devils an unclean spirit, and in Matthew they are calling the Spirit behind Jesus casting out devils Beelzebub the prince of devils.
Click to expand...
The original Greek text does apply in that they were speaking of the work HE did not mention the Holy Spirit in their accusation.

The Pharisees were ignorant and only said what they did because of what the People Said, who did not even mention the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 12:22-32

22 Then one was brought to Him who was demon-possessed, blind and mute; and He healed him, so that the [d]blind and mute man both spoke and saw. 23 And all the multitudes were amazed and said, “Could this be the Son of David?”

24 Now when the Pharisees heard it they said, “This fellow does not cast out demons except by Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons.”

25 But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26 If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? 27 And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out?

Therefore they shall be your judges.

28 But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you. 29 Or how can one enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house. 30 He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad.

31 “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

The motivation of the Pharisees was to discredit Jesus because of what the People were saying they did not mention the Holy Spirit.

That is why Jesus talked about the WORKS that he did it was blasphemy to say what the Holy Spirit did as that of the devil works yet they did not say the Holy Spirit is a devil.

it was the very works of Jesus that testified to who he is. That is what the Pharisees were attacking.

Jesus admonished them.
 
Mem

Mem

Senior Member
#77
Sep 23, 2014
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#77
CS1 said:
Jesus admonished them.
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Jesus concludes His admonishment to this particular Pharisaical statement by speaking of "judgment for every empty word," and this supports your summary on that this was spoken in ignorance rather than knowingly.
 
G

GWH

Groovy
#78
Oct 19, 2024
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#78
CS1 said:
does it say that?
Click to expand...
Our God-given logic or reasoning ability leads us to believe that, unless you want to conclude that there are TWO unforgivable sins!
 
P

presidente

Senior Member
#79
May 29, 2013
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#79
CS1 said:
The original Greek text does apply in that they were speaking of the work HE did not mention the Holy Spirit in their accusation.

The Pharisees were ignorant and only said what they did because of what the People Said, who did not even mention the Holy Spirit.

Matthew 12:22-32

22 Then one was brought to Him who was demon-possessed, blind and mute; and He healed him, so that the [d]blind and mute man both spoke and saw. 23 And all the multitudes were amazed and said, “Could this be the Son of David?”

24 Now when the Pharisees heard it they said, “This fellow does not cast out demons except by Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons.”

25 But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26 If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself. How then will his kingdom stand? 27 And if I cast out demons by Beelzebub, by whom do your sons cast them out?

Therefore they shall be your judges.

28 But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, surely the kingdom of God has come upon you. 29 Or how can one enter a strong man’s house and plunder his goods, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house. 30 He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters abroad.

31 “Therefore I say to you, every sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven men. 32 Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the Holy Spirit, it will not be forgiven him, either in this age or in the age to come.

The motivation of the Pharisees was to discredit Jesus because of what the People were saying they did not mention the Holy Spirit.

That is why Jesus talked about the WORKS that he did it was blasphemy to say what the Holy Spirit did as that of the devil works yet they did not say the Holy Spirit is a devil.

it was the very works of Jesus that testified to who he is. That is what the Pharisees were attacking.

Jesus admonished them.
Click to expand...
Which verse does not have the Greek word for 'he'? I am looking at verse 24. They claimed that Jesus was casting out demons by Beelzebub when actually the Spirit by which He cast out demons was the Holy Spirit.
 
P

PaulThomson

Well-known member
#80
Oct 29, 2023
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#80
PaulThomson said:
The context of Heb. 6:4 - 6 nuances the meaning of 6:4 - 6.

6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

3 And this will we do, if God permit.

4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.

Who is the "we"?
Impossible for whom?
What would be the difference if it had said, "It is impossible for them to be renewed to repentance" (which it does not say), instead of, "It is impossible to renew them gain to repentance" (which it does say) ?

What would be the difference between a teacher telling her class, " It is impossible to swallow a one metre long fish whole", versus " It is impossible for a one metre long fish to be swallowed whole" ?

CS1 said:
The issue is Christ is the only one who used the term " Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit."

In addition to this, the Greek also present an application of the meaning that One does not speak Blasphemy about the Holy Spirit but is equating or speaking of what is the work of the Holy Spirit or what the Holy Spirit has done as evil.

The Greek seems to say they did not speak bad of the Holy Spirit but of what is Clearly a work of the Holy Spirit
as being of the devil.

  1. sometimes referred to in a way which emphasises his work and power (the Spirit of "Truth")
Click to expand...
You put absolutely zero thought into my three questions.

Who is the "we"?
Impossible for whom?
What would be the difference if it had said, "It is impossible for them to be renewed to repentance" (which it does not say), instead of, "It is impossible to renew them gain to repentance" (which it does say) ?
 
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