Understanding God’s election

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Pilgrimshope

Pilgrimshope

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#101
Sep 2, 2020
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#101
John146 said:
If God did not choose them for salvation, they are predestined for hell. Pretty simple.
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Ye that’s the flaw in the whole predestination argument. There’s a certain group that’s predestined and elect by God nothing they choose or do affects it …..but everyone not elected that’s not Gods choice it’s thier fault now . it’s an incoherent idea when compared to biblical doctrine that tells us Jesus died for all peoples sin and is calling all people to repent , believe and be saved

“My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭2:1-2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Jesus death was to take all the worlds sin upon himself and Gods Will is that all people are saved believing the truth

“For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.”
‭‭1 Timothy‬ ‭2:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

God wants all people to be saved he died for all peoples sins he sent the gospel to all people and said believe and be saved

Who is the gospel able to save who was it sent to ?

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That covers everyone and tells us how we can be saved and also warns how we become damned

Again Gods Will is not for anyone to perish but for all to repent and be saved

“The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

People have confused this doctrine to a very destructive place
 
Pilgrimshope

Pilgrimshope

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#102
Sep 2, 2020
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#102
Cameron143 said:
Not so. He simply allowed them to follow their fallen nature. They made themselves meet for destruction; not God.
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If you have a group and choose some for saving , you are automatically dooming the others by your choice

thankfully that’s not what God did
 
Pilgrimshope

Pilgrimshope

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#103
Sep 2, 2020
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#103
Cameron143 said:
It's their choice. No one forces anyone to reject God. They choose to.
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“It's their choice. No one forces anyone to reject God.”

but he forces the saved to accept him ?


The concept of a certain group elect by God doesn’t fit your own arguments and comes back to making a choice it’s the same for both groups it is our choice now no one’s forbidden from salvation and no one’s guaranteed it beyond what scripture says

it’s an option God gave us all

they choose to reject God , the others chose to accept him.

They choose to reject God others choose to hold on tight because they heard the gospel and believe in him
 
E

Everlasting-Grace

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#104
Dec 18, 2021
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#104
Cameron143 said:
I don't believe in freewill either.
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Then I was correct to begin with, you are a fatalist.. You can deny it all you want. But if you reject free will. Then you in fact say your eternity is predetermined

An individual's will is subject to some nature. One is either a slave to sin or set free by Christ, who is then one's new Master.
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One is not set free until they first are justified.. one can not be justified ubless they of a free will choice recieve Gods grace gift of his righteousness.. Until then you’re not regenerated. Or born again

Because we are all in Adam, we all begin as slaves to sin. Read Ephesians 2:1-3 to see what that looks like. This is what necessitates salvation.
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I know what it looks like

And I know what a fatalist looks like.. And you fit the mold quite well
 
E

Everlasting-Grace

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#105
Dec 18, 2021
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#105
Cameron143 said:
Not so. He simply allowed them to follow their fallen nature. They made themselves meet for destruction; not God.
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No.

If God does not give them the ability to chose life. Then its God’ s fault not theirs

This is the root form of what fatalism believes.

God did not chose you. So you eternity is in effect predestined.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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#107
Pilgrimshope said:
So if they go to hell it’s tbier fault but if they don’t go to hell it’s Gods choice regardless of thier deeds ?
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I missed the 2nd part of this. If someone gets saved, truly saved wherein the Holy Spirit takes up residence in an individual, they will be changed. It's not that the individual will never sin. Indeed they will. But they will recognize their actions as sin, and eventually repent. The chastening hand of God insures this.
What has happened in our time is that many have been told that if they will accept Jesus into their hearts, and say a sinner's prayer, they are saved. No mention of sorrow over sin and conversion are ever mentioned.
What we find is that there are many who have been told they are saved when they have not. So while they associate themselves with the church and the things of God, they remain unchanged because they have not been born from above.
How do we know? Because the same grace that brings salvation to an individual also sanctifies an individual. The same power that raised Jesus from the dead is at work in a genuine believer.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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#108
Everlasting-Grace said:
No.

If God does not give them the ability to chose life. Then its God’ s fault not theirs

This is the root form of what fatalism believes.

God did not chose you. So you eternity is in effect predestined.
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That's just your poor understanding of scripture. Romans 1 clearly makes men responsible before God, and Romans 9 clearly says men fit themselves for destruction.
You don't have to receive what I've shared, but it's right there in the scripture.
 
studentoftheword

studentoftheword

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Nov 12, 2021
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#110
Cameron143 said:
That would be accurate if Romans 8:29 said WHAT God foreknew rather than WHOM He foreknew. But it doesn't. God doesn't say He foreknew hearts; He foreknew people.
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Cameron43 ------your grasping at straws and trying to twist Scripture to say what you want to believe and your ----------WRONG ----In all your Getting Get Understanding ---rely on the Holy Spirit to teach you not John Calvin -----or mankind

Cameron 43 ----Give your head a shake ----God created us Humans ---he knows us personally ---He knows how many hairs we have on our heads and your trying to say that he didn't foreknew our hearts --Yhat is just such a Bizarre Statement ---He made us and He does know our hearts and our mind and what we think and how we act ----he knows everything about Each one of us ------


This is romans 9 in Context -----AMP B ---


Our Victory in Christ

26 In the same way the Spirit [comes to us and] helps us in our weakness. We do not know what prayer to offer or how to offer it as we should, but the Spirit Himself [knows our need and at the right time] intercedes on our behalf with sighs and groanings too deep for words. 27 And He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because the Spirit intercedes [before God] on behalf of [a]God’s people in accordance with God’s will.

28 And we know [with great confidence] that God [who is deeply concerned about us] causes all things to work together [as a plan] for good for those who love God, to those who are called according to His plan and purpose.

29 For those whom He foreknew [and loved and chose beforehand], He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son [and ultimately share in His complete sanctification], so that He would be the firstborn [the most beloved and honored] among many believers.


What was His Plan and Purpose ---to sent His Son to take away all sin for all people so if they choose to receive His son they would be saved and have Eternal life -----


Get your head up from under the sand and seek the truth -----

1730487551244.jpeg
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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#112
Mar 1, 2022
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#112
Pilgrimshope said:
“It's their choice. No one forces anyone to reject God.”

but he forces the saved to accept him ?


The concept of a certain group elect by God doesn’t fit your own arguments and comes back to making a choice it’s the same for both groups it is our choice now no one’s forbidden from salvation and no one’s guaranteed it beyond what scripture says

it’s an option God gave us all

they choose to reject God , the others chose to accept him.

They choose to reject God others choose to hold on tight because they heard the gospel and believe in him
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No, He enables them by changing their nature. This is, in part, why believers become partakers of the divine nature.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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#113
studentoftheword said:
Cameron43 ------your grasping at straws and trying to twist Scripture to say what you want to believe and your ----------WRONG ----In all your Getting Get Understanding ---rely on the Holy Spirit to teach you not John Calvin -----or mankind

Cameron 43 ----Give your head a shake ----God created us Humans ---he knows us personally ---He knows how many hairs we have on our heads and your trying to say that he didn't foreknew our hearts --Yhat is just such a Bizarre Statement ---He made us and He does know our hearts and our mind and what we think and how we act ----he knows everything about Each one of us ------


This is romans 9 in Context -----AMP B ---


Our Victory in Christ

26 In the same way the Spirit [comes to us and] helps us in our weakness. We do not know what prayer to offer or how to offer it as we should, but the Spirit Himself [knows our need and at the right time] intercedes on our behalf with sighs and groanings too deep for words. 27 And He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because the Spirit intercedes [before God] on behalf of [a]God’s people in accordance with God’s will.

28 And we know [with great confidence] that God [who is deeply concerned about us] causes all things to work together [as a plan] for good for those who love God, to those who are called according to His plan and purpose.

29 For those whom He foreknew [and loved and chose beforehand], He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son [and ultimately share in His complete sanctification], so that He would be the firstborn [the most beloved and honored] among many believers.


What was His Plan and Purpose ---to sent His Son to take away all sin for all people so if they choose to receive His son they would be saved and have Eternal life -----


Get your head up from under the sand and seek the truth -----

View attachment 269229
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That's funny, but words are important. What I shared was biblically accurate. What you posted was not.
 
J

John146

Senior Member
#114
Jan 13, 2016
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#114
Furthermore, not one person can even know if they have been elected by God, because one must persevere to the end. You may fall short which proves you were never elect. :eek:
 
J

John146

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Jan 13, 2016
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#115
Galatians 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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#116
Mar 1, 2022
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#116
Everlasting-Grace said:
Then I was correct to begin with, you are a fatalist.. You can deny it all you want. But if you reject free will. Then you in fact say your eternity is predetermined


One is not set free until they first are justified.. one can not be justified ubless they of a free will choice recieve Gods grace gift of his righteousness.. Until then you’re not regenerated. Or born again


I know what it looks like

And I know what a fatalist looks like.. And you fit the mold quite well
Click to expand...
While I can't convince you otherwise, I'm not a fatalist. God can save anyone, anywhere, in any moment.
Thanks for the discussion. Grace and peace.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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Mar 1, 2022
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#117
John146 said:
Furthermore, not one person can even know if they have been elected by God, because one must persevere to the end. You may fall short which proves you were never elect. :eek:
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That's not what 1 John 5:13 says.
 
cv5

cv5

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Nov 20, 2018
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#120
Pilgrimshope said:
it’s an option God gave us all

they choose to reject God , the others chose to accept him.

They choose to reject God others choose to hold on tight because they heard the gospel and believe in him
Click to expand...
Correct. Rahab and the Gibeonites.....CHOSE WISELY. They in fact had a real choice and the free will to make it.
Did God visibly send lightning bolts from heaven down on their heads to ignite a fire of faith in these two? Not so you would notice.

Rom 2:11
For there is no respect of persons with God.

Act 10:34
Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Act 10:35
But in every nation he that feareth him, and worketh righteousness, is accepted with him.

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As for hold on tight.....yea. Something like that. At least from our perspective that is.
But the real lesson here is that God is HOLDING ON TO US.

Gen 32:26
And he said, Let me go, for the day breaketh. And he said, I will not let thee go, except thou bless me.
Tools
Gen 32:27
And he said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
Gen 32:28
And he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

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