Understanding God’s election

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cv5

cv5

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Rufus said:
But you failed dismally to free yourself from you own deceitful heart; therefore, you only think you are free.
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Enjoy your gruel and chamber pot in that dungeon buddy.
Evidently, you have no other choice.
 
G

GWH

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rogerg said:
Yeah, I've digested it. That was under the Old Covenant, not the New Covenant. No choice given under the
NC - God does it all. See the "I will" and "will I" etc? Choice was a work required under the OC not the NC.

[Heb 10:16 KJV] 16 This [is] the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them;
[Heb 10:17 KJV] 17 And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more.
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I have never heard someone say God gave OT folks a choice but forced NT folks to obey His laws.

However, that does not harmonize God's sovereignty with His all-lovingness, a logical contradiction you avoid like a plague--or are you also going to say God changed His nature from all-loving in the OT to only loving a few in the NT?
 
cv5

cv5

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Rufus said:
Rahab was an instrument of God's plan. She had a plan because she was one of God's elect. And if it weren't for God's power, the Gibeonites would have folded like a cheap accordion.
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Rahab was provided infallible witness. So was everyone else.
Rahab feared. So did everyone else.
Rahab knew. So did everyone else.

But both Rahab and the Gibeonites made informed, rational, deliberate willful decisions,
PUT THEIR LIVES ON THE LINE AND CHOSE TO ENTER INTO THE COVENANT.

===========================================

What of Chorazin and Bethsaida? They made informed, rational deliberate willful choices just the same.
 
R

rogerg

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Jul 13, 2021
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GWH said:
I have never heard someone say God gave OT folks a choice but forced NT folks to obey His laws.

However, that does not harmonize God's sovereignty with His all-lovingness, a logical contradiction you avoid like a plague--or are you also going to say God changed His nature from all-loving in the OT to only loving a few in the NT?
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So, you don't understand those verses ? I didn't write them. What do you think they mean? God is judge too - His lovingkindness
reserved for those, and only for those, He chose to justify by Christ.
 
I

Inquisitor

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HeIsHere said:
It is not really a debate. It is an attempt to extinguish the personal Gospel of Christ Jesus. It is in fact the constant need to fight against this attempt.

Can you imagine if this was the prevailing doctrine.

"Jesus died on the cross for some people now you wait and see if God picks you, it is kinda like the wind it just goes about and it just happens, POOF!!.... keep hoping it might come your way."

How would anyone get saved?
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Even worse, after 30 years of being a Christian and suffering persecution.

The thought occurs that perhaps I was never predestined for salvation.

Even though I confessed Jesus and believed in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Alas, the biblical criteria is met but ultimately did God choose me?

I wonder how many Calvinists have hit that speed bump.

Have I been eternally chosen or was I acting like a Christian my whole life?

Under Calvinism there is no test for the Christian faith because no one knows.
 
R

rogerg

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GWH said:
I have never heard someone say God gave OT folks a choice but forced NT folks to obey His laws.
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God placed within the hearts and minds of the NC folks, his law - the law of Christ - which law, through the Holy Spirit, they conform to but was satisfied by Christ.

[Rom 8:2 KJV] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

The choice given the OC folks could not be satisfied by them:

[Eze 20:25 KJV] 25 Wherefore I gave them also statutes [that were] not good, and judgments whereby they should not live;
 
I

Inquisitor

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GWH said:
Re "By grace through faith and nothing of ourselves, means we are not capable of anything
approaching righteousness in ourselves.": No, "through faith" means God gives us the capability of either accepting or rejecting His grace (DT 30:19), which makes us accountable/culpable for sin and harmonizes God's justice with all-lovingness.
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Ephesians 2:8
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and this is not of yourselves, it is the gift of God.

Salvation is a free gift given to those that believe the gospel.

1 Corinthians 2:2
For I determined to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ, and Him crucified (the gospel).

The gospel is all about the death and resurrection of Jesus and nothing else.

The atonement of us to the Father belongs to Christ alone.
 
R

Rufus

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cv5 said:
Enjoy your gruel and chamber pot in that dungeon buddy.
Evidently, you have no other choice.
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That dungeon that you think I'm in is merely a product of your overworked, under-nourished, Arminianism-fed, spiritually-dead imagination.
 
R

rogerg

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Inquisitor said:
The atonement of us to the Father belongs to Christ alone.
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Correct, and therefore, it is not by anything that we may do, including by/from our belief - it is a gift given solely by/through Christ - all by Him - our belief comes from that.
 
R

Rufus

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Inquisitor said:
Even worse, after 30 years of being a Christian and suffering persecution.

The thought occurs that perhaps I was never predestined for salvation.

Even though I confessed Jesus and believed in the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Alas, the biblical criteria is met but ultimately did God choose me?

I wonder how many Calvinists have hit that speed bump.

Have I been eternally chosen or was I acting like a Christian my whole life?

Under Calvinism there is no test for the Christian faith because no one knows.
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Not true! We should be measuring our lives by scripture that clearly, plainly and frequently tells us what kind of lives God's new born again creation should be living.
 
R

Rufus

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cv5 said:
Rahab was provided infallible witness. So was everyone else.
Rahab feared. So did everyone else.
Rahab knew. So did everyone else.

But both Rahab and the Gibeonites made informed, rational, deliberate willful decisions,
PUT THEIR LIVES ON THE LINE AND CHOSE TO ENTER INTO THE COVENANT.

===========================================

What of Chorazin and Bethsaida? They made informed, rational deliberate willful choices just the same.
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No man chooses to enter into a covenant with God, since all the covenants were instituted by God and the terms and not man! It is strictly by God's doing that anyone us is in Christ Jesus (1Cor 1:30). The text doesn't say that anyone is in Christ Jesus due to men willfully teaming up with God to save them. Read the terms of the unconditional, unilateral New Covenant some day.
 
G

GWH

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rogerg said:
So, you don't understand those verses ? I didn't write them. What do you think they mean? God is judge too - His lovingkindness
reserved for those, and only for those, He chose to justify by Christ.
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The question should be "What do all of the verses on this topic mean or how can they be harmonized?"

IOW, how can "I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more" (Heb 10:16-17) be harmonized with "God our Savior wants all people to be saved" (1TM 2:3-4, cf. MT 5:44-48)?

Do you want to go first?
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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HeIsHere said:
Okay..
Sermon is then..

"Christ was crucified and then rose from the dead.

I do not have to explain it any further what it means for you on a personal level becuase you cannot believe it or exercise faith IN Christ Jesus as the object of your faith as God requires, so no worries the wind blows where it will and you might get lucky before you die.

Since this is all goobly gook/foolishness to you as Paul explains so clearly, again no worries being a member of the Reformed Church means most likely you are one of the elect because that is who gathers here."
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There is no requirement to attend a reformed church for salvation. I personally attend a nondenominational church. There are also no requirements that one is reformed to attend a church with reformed beliefs.
That you find it gobblygook simply means you don't understand reformed theology.
 
R

rogerg

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GWH said:
The question should be "What do all of the verses on this topic mean or how can they be harmonized?"

IOW, how can "I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more" (Heb 10:16-17) be harmonized with "God our Savior wants all people to be saved" (1TM 2:3-4, cf. MT 5:44-48)?

Do you want to go first?
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Okay. It is not, nor was it ever, His plan to save everyone.
The "all" represents "all" He chose to salvation - that is not everyone
 
R

Rufus

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Feb 17, 2024
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GWH said:
The question should be "What do all of the verses on this topic mean or how can they be harmonized?"

IOW, how can "I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them; And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more" (Heb 10:16-17) be harmonized with "God our Savior wants all people to be saved" (1TM 2:3-4, cf. MT 5:44-48)?

Do you want to go first?
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Mat 5:44-48 speaks to God's common grace, not his saving grace. And I debunked the poor, anemic interpretation of 1Tim 2:3-7 yesterday in this thread in my post 2474. "All men" in this passage is used in the limited sense by Paul.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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cv5 said:
That is basically crazy talk right there.
God went somewhere = salvation.
What?
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God is always at work. When one is in tune with the spiritual, like Jesus they will see what God is doing and join Him. Jesus did only what He saw the Father doing. We should do likewise. What do you suppose Jesus saw God doing?
There is an excellent book by Henry Blackaby called Experiencing God that might prove helpful.
 
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