Understanding God’s election

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rogerg

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Inquisitor said:
If some tells you that Jesus died for your fleshly deeds and you actually believe the gospel.

Then you receive the Holy Spirit and then works follow, fruit grows, heart softens, etc.

Believing the narration is not a work, it does not require the Holy Spirit.

Because you don't receive the H.S until you believe.

That's what Paul states.

So how can you have a cultivated heart before believing the gospel?

You are proposing a contradiction.
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I explained already about a "cultivated heart" that it is given as a gift of God which comes with salvation.
No one can truly believe the gospel unless first saved. The unsaved, while possibly claiming to believe,
are actually trusting in themselves - that it is they who caused their belief, so their believe is actually in themselves,
not God. The source of one's belief, as perceived by them, becomes the entity in which their belief has been placed - whether it is towards God or towards man.
 
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rogerg

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GWH said:
You did. "You heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit." (EPH 1:13)
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Being able to truly hear the word of truth (spiritual hearing, by the way) comes only from being born again, not before. Salvation precedes it.
 
Genez

Genez

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GWH said:
You did. "You heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit." (EPH 1:13)
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Dead?
Like in.....

"But the widow who lives for pleasure is dead even while she lives." 1 Tim 5:6

That warning was was written to the church. To believers.

Why was she dead?
What kind of death, though saved?


..............
 
C

Cranberry

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GWH said:
You did. "You heard the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation. When you believed, you were marked in him with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit." (EPH 1:13)
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Ephesians 1:
3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves.
 
cv5

cv5

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rogerg said:
Being able to truly hear the word of truth
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Except for Rahab, the Gibeonites, all of the Canaanites, their kings, all of Jericho, Nebuchadnezzar, a bunch of Persian kings, the widow of Zarephath, Naaman, the third captain of the fifty, a Roman Centurion, a couple of Roman soldiers at the Cross, a thief on a cross, and the list goes on....

All of whom knew perfectly well the word of truth that the God of Israel is the true God.
In fact all of the nations surrounding Israel knew beyond any doubt whatsoever that the God of Israel is the true God.
They could CHOOSE to accept this fact and align their lives accordingly, or not.
And either enjoy the results or suffer the consequences.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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cv5 said:
The full counsel of God does not consist of 4-5 disjointed misapplied verses repeated over and over again ad nauseum.

And as I have earlier demonstrated, the Rahab/Gibeonite saga utterly annihilates the preposterous pretentions of the Calvinites.
You have NO ANSWER, and you never will have an answer, nor will anybody else.

It's as if those passages were written for the very purpose that I used them for. Fancy that.
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You haven't even answered my question concerning Rahab. If you are going to make accusations, at least follow through when someone shows you your error.
 
R

rogerg

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cv5 said:
Except for Rahab, the Gibeonites, all of the Canaanites, their kings, all of Jericho, Nebuchadnezzar, a bunch of Persian kings, the widow of Zarephath, Naaman, the third captain of the fifty, a Roman Centurion, a couple of Roman soldiers at the Cross, a thief on a cross, and the list goes on....

All of whom knew perfectly well the word of truth that the God of Israel is the true God.
In fact all of the nations surrounding Israel knew beyond any doubt whatsoever that the God of Israel is the true God.
They could CHOOSE to accept this fact and align their lives accordingly, or not.
And either enjoy the results or suffer the consequences.
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It is a spiritual issue not an earthly issue. No one can comprehend the spiritual unless first given spiritual discernment from
God through salvation and the Holy Spirit. You seem to be confusing the two.
 
cv5

cv5

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Rufus said:
All the above talking about Natural Revelation. And, yes, God made it plain but the God haters of the world want nothing to do with Him, which is why they suppressed the truth in unrighteousness. In other words, the problem isn't with Natural Revelation but with the recipients of it, which you conveniently ignore.
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I call to your attention the fact that by the time Romans was written, there was an absolutely IMMENSE boatload of supernatural revelation on the record. Which of course includes the First Advent.

Why in the world are you imposing unwarranted limitations?
 
cv5

cv5

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rogerg said:
It is a spiritual issue not an earthly issue. No one can comprehend the spiritual unless first given spiritual discernment from
God through salvation and the Holy Spirit. You seem to be confusing the two.
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Somebody is confused and it ain't me.
 
Genez

Genez

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Cameron143 said:
You haven't even answered my question concerning Rahab. If you are going to make accusations, at least follow through when someone shows you your error.
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How come, after responding to a post of yours, you say people keep not answering your questions.... so often?
 
cv5

cv5

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Cameron143 said:
You haven't even answered my question concerning Rahab. If you are going to make accusations, at least follow through when someone shows you your error.
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Question about Rahab? I didn't see any question about Rahab.
But what is far more telling is that I definitely did not see any answers either.
 
HeIsHere

HeIsHere

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cv5 said:
Question about Rahab? I didn't see any question about Rahab.
But what is far more telling is that I definitely did not see any answers either.
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I think it was this.....

You presume that Rahab took the initiative. Read Joshua 2:9-10 again. She says I know that the Lord has given you the land. How did she know that?
 
C

Cranberry

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cv5 said:
Except for Rahab, the Gibeonites, all of the Canaanites, their kings, all of Jericho, Nebuchadnezzar, a bunch of Persian kings, the widow of Zarephath, Naaman, the third captain of the fifty, a Roman Centurion, a couple of Roman soldiers at the Cross, a thief on a cross, and the list goes on....

All of whom knew perfectly well the word of truth that the God of Israel is the true God.
In fact all of the nations surrounding Israel knew beyond any doubt whatsoever that the God of Israel is the true God.
They could CHOOSE to accept this fact and align their lives accordingly, or not.
And either enjoy the results or suffer the consequences.
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Jeremiah 1 The words of Jeremiah son of Hilkiah, one of the priests at Anathoth in the territory of Benjamin.​

2 The word of the LORD came to him in the thirteenth year of the reign of Josiah son of Amon king of Judah,​

3 and through the reign of Jehoiakim son of Josiah king of Judah, down to the fifth month of the eleventh year of Zedekiah son of Josiah king of Judah, when the people of Jerusalem went into exile.​

The Call of Jeremiah
4 The word of the LORD came to me, saying,​

5 “Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations.”​
 
R

rogerg

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cv5 said:
They could CHOOSE to accept this fact and align their lives accordingly, or not.
And either enjoy the results or suffer the consequences.
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Nope, without spiritual discernment they would be unable to choose because spiritual discernment comes from/with receiving
the Holy Spirit- the Holy Spirit from becoming saved. Those that have Him, through Him, understand, those without Him, not.
Choosing to align one's life has nothing to do with becoming saved or the spiritual. That would be man's work in an attempt to gain or purchase salvation - Satan's gospel - not God's. Salvation, on the other hand, and as we are informed in Eph 2:8, is solely the gift of God. That it is a gift, and solely through Christ, it is unpurchasable by us. It is the gospel's message and a simple one.
 
cv5

cv5

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HeIsHere said:
I think it was this.....

You presume that Rahab took the initiative. Read Joshua 2:9-10 again. She says I know that the Lord has given you the land. How did she know that?
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Already answered. Dumb question to begin with to be very honest.
 
Genez

Genez

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rogerg said:
Nope, without spiritual discernment they would be unable to choose because spiritual discernment comes from/with receiving
the Holy Spirit- the Holy Spirit from becoming saved. Those that have Him, through Him, understand, those without Him, not.
Choosing to align one's life has nothing to do with becoming saved or the spiritual. That would be man's work in an attempt to gain or purchase salvation - Satan's gospel - not God's. Salvation, on the other hand, and as we are informed in Eph 2:8, is solely the gift of God. That it is a gift, and solely through Christ, it is unpurchasable by us. It is the gospel's message and a simple one.
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If what you are saying is accurate and true?
Then?

Only those who find themselves following Calvinism have been saved.
 
cv5

cv5

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rogerg said:
Nope, without spiritual discernment they would be unable to choose because spiritual discernment comes from/with receiving
the Holy Spirit- the Holy Spirit from becoming saved. Those that have Him, through Him, understand, those without Him, not.
Choosing to align one's life has nothing to do with becoming saved or the spiritual. That would be man's work in an attempt to gain or purchase salvation - Satan's gospel - not God's. Salvation, on the other hand, and as we are informed in Eph 2:8, is solely the gift of God. That it is a gift, and solely through Christ, it is unpurchasable by us. It is the gospel's message and a simple one.
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Standard Calvinite gnostic bafflegab.

Rahab chose life. It's as simple as that.
She was an HEROIC overcomer by doing so BTW.
Eternally honored in Scripture. God likes people like her.
 
cv5

cv5

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Genez said:
If what you are saying is accurate and true?
Then?

Only those who find themselves following Calvinism have been saved.
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Only the Calvinites possess these special spiritual superpowers.
In fact they boast and brag about it constantly.

The rest of humanity are damned before they were ever born.
 
R

rogerg

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Genez said:
If what you are saying is accurate and true?
Then?

Only those who find themselves following Calvinism have been saved.
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No. Those whom God chose, and from that, whose trust is fully, completely and truly in Christ alone as Savior in all ways, not in themselves, they have been saved.
 
I

Inquisitor

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Rufus said:
I know what you said, but didn't read my reply very well. I very clearly said that Paul switches back 'n' forth between directing his remarks to Jews at one time and at other times to Gentiles (Rom 11:13; Rom 15:14ff.) And Paul rightly makes a big point in this latter passage about being called as a minister to the Gentiles! Paul never wrote an epistle directed to only the Jews -- and that includes Hebrews, by the way, which he did not write.

And, again, salutations in the beginning of epistles should not be ignored. It tells us plainly to whom Paul was writing. There's not a thing in that salutation that limits the saints or those who were called to being only messianic Jews. The salutation is UNQUALIFIED.

P.S.
The book of Romans is much larger than just chapter two.
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Paul wrote 12 letters and no one knows who was the author of Hebrews.

Here is the a paragraph before Romans 11:13

Romans 11:11-12
I say then, they did not stumble so as to fall, did they? Far from it!
But by their wrongdoing salvation has come to the Gentiles, to make them jealous.
Now if their wrongdoing proves to be riches for the world, and their failure, riches
for the Gentiles, how much more will their fulfillment be!

Do you understand what Paul is saying here?

The Jews rejected Jesus and that wrong doing resulted in the gospel, going to the Gentiles.

Their failure was riches for the Gentiles.

Romans 11:15
For if their rejection proves to be the reconciliation of the world.

Once again Rufus, you owe your salvation to the failure of Israel.
 
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