The Teachings of Paul (TOP)

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GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
3,086
700
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#1
The primary intent in the this thread is to compile a comprehensive survey of the teachings of Paul (TOP) rather than to conduct an exhaustive discussion of each one. It begins by examining the TOP in the book of Acts and then follows the order of the epistles. Some of Paul’s statements seem meant for that historical occasion rather than for the purpose of teaching a doctrinal or moral truth (e.g., ACTS 13:10-11 & 22:1-21), so they are not mentioned. Minimal commentary may be made, hoping that it is helpful.

TOP #1: God chose Israel for the purpose of providing the Savior Jesus, who was crucified but raised from the dead in fulfillment of prophecy, and through whom the good news regarding forgiveness of sins by faith in Him is proclaimed. [ACTS 13:16-39]
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
3,086
700
113
#2
The primary intent in the this thread is to compile a comprehensive survey of the teachings of Paul (TOP) rather than to conduct an exhaustive discussion of each one. It begins by examining the TOP in the book of Acts and then follows the order of the epistles. Some of Paul’s statements seem meant for that historical occasion rather than for the purpose of teaching a doctrinal or moral truth (e.g., ACTS 13:10-11 & 22:1-21), so they are not mentioned. Minimal commentary may be made, hoping that it is helpful.

TOP #1: God chose Israel for the purpose of providing the Savior Jesus, who was crucified but raised from the dead in fulfillment of prophecy, and through whom the good news regarding forgiveness of sins by faith in Him is proclaimed. [ACTS 13:16-39]
For those interested in participating in this study, would you like to identify the next TOP in Acts?
 
Nov 14, 2024
1,380
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#3
You skipped Paul's first preaching/teaching.

Act 9:19
And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.
Act 9:20
And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.
Act 9:21
But all that heard him were amazed, and said; Is not this he that destroyed them which called on this name in Jerusalem, and came hither for that intent, that he might bring them bound unto the chief priests?
Act 9:22
But Saul increased the more in strength, and confounded the Jews which dwelt at Damascus, proving that this is very Christ.

Paul's first preaching/teaching centered around Jesus being both the Christ and the Son of God. Seeing how he was in the synagogues, and seeing how he proved the same, we can safely conclude that Paul made his case from the Old Testament scriptures.
 
Nov 14, 2024
1,380
936
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#5
He gave two examples at the end of the sentence that you partially quoted.
Some of Paul’s statements seem meant for that historical occasion rather than for the purpose of teaching a doctrinal or moral truth (e.g., ACTS 13:10-11 & 22:1-21), so they are not mentioned.
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
3,086
700
113
#6
You skipped Paul's first preaching/teaching.

Act 9:19
And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.
Act 9:20
And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.
Act 9:21
But all that heard him were amazed, and said; Is not this he that destroyed them which called on this name in Jerusalem, and came hither for that intent, that he might bring them bound unto the chief priests?
Act 9:22
But Saul increased the more in strength, and confounded the Jews which dwelt at Damascus, proving that this is very Christ.

Paul's first preaching/teaching centered around Jesus being both the Christ and the Son of God. Seeing how he was in the synagogues, and seeing how he proved the same, we can safely conclude that Paul made his case from the Old Testament scriptures.
In a way, you are correct, although I accidentally did not notice them because they are not in quotes, so good catch!
(I will note this passage on my website, thanks! :^)
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
3,086
700
113
#7
Okay, the notation I added is this:

The first reference to the TOP is in Acts 9:20 & 22, in which Luke says Paul preached that Jesus is the Son of God and the Christ, but our list will begin with the first place Paul is quoted.

Now I will repeat the first TOP and raise you two for consideration:

TOP #1: God chose Israel for the purpose of providing the Savior Jesus, who was crucified but raised from the dead in fulfillment of prophecy, and through whom the good news regarding forgiveness of sins by faith in Him is proclaimed. [ACTS 13:16-39]

TOP #2: God offers salvation to the Gentiles. [ACTS 13:47, cf. IS 49:6] In Ephesians Paul says this truth was a mystery now being revealed. (EPH 3:1-9)

TOP #3: God is manifested by His creation. [ACTS 14:16-17//RM 1:20] Nature shows God’s kindness and divine blessings provide joy.

Comments, corrections, additions of the next TOP? :^)
 

John146

Senior Member
Jan 13, 2016
17,488
3,761
113
#8
Okay, the notation I added is this:

The first reference to the TOP is in Acts 9:20 & 22, in which Luke says Paul preached that Jesus is the Son of God and the Christ, but our list will begin with the first place Paul is quoted.

Now I will repeat the first TOP and raise you two for consideration:

TOP #1: God chose Israel for the purpose of providing the Savior Jesus, who was crucified but raised from the dead in fulfillment of prophecy, and through whom the good news regarding forgiveness of sins by faith in Him is proclaimed. [ACTS 13:16-39]

TOP #2: God offers salvation to the Gentiles. [ACTS 13:47, cf. IS 49:6] In Ephesians Paul says this truth was a mystery now being revealed. (EPH 3:1-9)

TOP #3: God is manifested by His creation. [ACTS 14:16-17//RM 1:20] Nature shows God’s kindness and divine blessings provide joy.

Comments, corrections, additions of the next TOP? :^)
TOP #1: This states how Israel is God’s elect nation to serve him bring forth the seed.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
15,104
6,095
113
#9
You skipped Paul's first preaching/teaching.

Act 9:19
And when he had received meat, he was strengthened. Then was Saul certain days with the disciples which were at Damascus.
Act 9:20
And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.
Act 9:21
But all that heard him were amazed, and said; Is not this he that destroyed them which called on this name in Jerusalem, and came hither for that intent, that he might bring them bound unto the chief priests?
Act 9:22
But Saul increased the more in strength, and confounded the Jews which dwelt at Damascus, proving that this is very Christ.

Paul's first preaching/teaching centered around Jesus being both the Christ and the Son of God. Seeing how he was in the synagogues, and seeing how he proved the same, we can safely conclude that Paul made his case from the Old Testament scriptures.
Amen he always was speaking from those scriptures he said as much when he was arrested and tried under oath

This is what he said he did after seeing the lord and being converted and chosen an apostle

“Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision: but shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judæa, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me.

Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come: that Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭26:19-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬




“And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.

And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers, saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; And seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: For the heart of this people is waxed gross, And their ears are dull of hearing, And their eyes have they closed; Lest they should see with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And understand with their heart, And should be converted, And I should heal them. Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it. And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.

And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭28:23-31‬ ‭

The New Testament is revelation and fulfillment of the Old Testament

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; and he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

….Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭3:19-21, 24‬ ‭KJV‬‬
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
3,086
700
113
#10
TOP #1: This states how Israel is God’s elect nation to serve him bring forth the seed.
Yes, and soon we will see Paul lament that most of Israel did not believe Jesus was that seed.

TOP #4: Believe in the Lord Jesus and you will be saved. [ACTS 16:31] Acts 17:3 clarifies that Jesus is the Christ/Messiah, who had to suffer and rise from the dead (cf. TOP #1).

TOP #5: God created the world including humanity, and in Him we have our being. [ACTS 17:24-28] This TOP will be restated with a different emphasis in TOP #10.

TOP #6: God commands repentance from ignorance and will judge humanity by means of Christ. [ACTS 17:30-31] Commanding repentance sounds like sinners are willfully ignorant and therefore morally accountable.
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
3,086
700
113
#11
Amen he always was speaking from those scriptures he said as much when he was arrested and tried under oath

This is what he said he did after seeing the lord and being converted and chosen an apostle

“Whereupon, O king Agrippa, I was not disobedient unto the heavenly vision: but shewed first unto them of Damascus, and at Jerusalem, and throughout all the coasts of Judæa, and then to the Gentiles, that they should repent and turn to God, and do works meet for repentance.

For these causes the Jews caught me in the temple, and went about to kill me.

Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come: that Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭26:19-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬




“And when they had appointed him a day, there came many to him into his lodging; to whom he expounded and testified the kingdom of God, persuading them concerning Jesus, both out of the law of Moses, and out of the prophets, from morning till evening. And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not.

And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers, saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; And seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: For the heart of this people is waxed gross, And their ears are dull of hearing, And their eyes have they closed; Lest they should see with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And understand with their heart, And should be converted, And I should heal them. Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it. And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.

And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭28:23-31‬ ‭

The New Testament is revelation and fulfillment of the Old Testament

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; and he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

….Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭3:19-21, 24‬ ‭KJV‬‬
Hold on, Pilgrim, you skipped a few. :^)
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
3,086
700
113
#13
I think it makes my point pretty well.
LGW is not about us making points but rather God making points and converting all to affirming what is good and true.

So, let us continue:

TOP #7: Keep watch and do not let wolves distort the truth. [ACTS 20:28-30a] Paul evinced awareness that the “gospel of God’s grace” (v.24) was a new and fragile revelation that risked being perverted.

TOP #8: It is more blessed to give than to receive. [ACTS 20:35] Paul cited a TOJ that is not recorded in the gospels.

Following the account of Paul’s mission in Acts, we now consider his teachings in Romans.

TOP #9: The Gospel of God is that Jesus was a descendant of David, who was revealed by His resurrection to be the Son of God and Christ the Lord. [RM 1:1-4] Paul says God graced him with apostleship for the purpose of calling all Gentiles to faith and obedience, including the Romans (v.5-6).
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
15,104
6,095
113
#14
LGW is not about us making points but rather God making points and converting all to affirming what is good and true.

So, let us continue:

TOP #7: Keep watch and do not let wolves distort the truth. [ACTS 20:28-30a] Paul evinced awareness that the “gospel of God’s grace” (v.24) was a new and fragile revelation that risked being perverted.

TOP #8: It is more blessed to give than to receive. [ACTS 20:35] Paul cited a TOJ that is not recorded in the gospels.

Following the account of Paul’s mission in Acts, we now consider his teachings in Romans.

TOP #9: The Gospel of God is that Jesus was a descendant of David, who was revealed by His resurrection to be the Son of God and Christ the Lord. [RM 1:1-4] Paul says God graced him with apostleship for the purpose of calling all Gentiles to faith and obedience, including the Romans (v.5-6).
“LGW is not about us making points…”

yeah but Lol In a discussion you sort of need to read someone’s point and then articulate a reply with hopefully some points you’re making ….it’s part of the process of having a discussion

as for the rest of what your saying … the scriptures i shared there were making a very specific point to the comment I had replied to that Paul’s preaching was coming from the ot prophets and law what they had foretold would happen paul was saying the same things as Moses and the prophets said would come only Paul as the other apostles were revelators of the scriptures in the ot showing the world how it applies to all of us in Christ


There’s a sequence to the Bible the law and prophets foretold the coming of the messiah and gospel , then the gospel came and fulfilled what the law and prophets said would happen

“For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭11:13‬ ‭

The law and the prophets were until John:

since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭16:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

after this Jesus sent out witnesses and gave then his spirit and revelation so th at tbey could inderrrsnd the scriptures and how they apply to all creation through the gospel

so just one example of what I’m saying this prophecy to israel in the ot appx 700 bc

“Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭53:4-6, 10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Then was fulfilled when Jesus was born and lived and preached the gospel and suffered and died for sins offering salvation to all who believe then rose up again from death and ascended to heavens throne

Paul’s ministry along with Peter and John and all the apostles was to witness to all people that Jesus is the king promosed messiah of Israel and salvation in him had been extended to all people beginning at Jerusalem to all people who believe the gospels record and witness

pauls role is a revelator of Old Testament prophecy like all the prophecies of Jesus dying for the peoples sins oauls doctrine is revelation of how that applies to us in Christ now of all nations and peoples

Just to understand who paul is compared to Jesus

Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, (which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; and declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: by whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1:1-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

And to understsnd where Paul’s doctrine came from

“Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come: that Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭26:22-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬


It’s the same Jesus said here he was sending them with

“And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, and said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things. And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭24:44-49‬ ‭


one message God has been articulating for a long time was fulfilled in the gospel Paul is one of those many messengers who Jesus gave revelation so they could articulate the gospel better to the church after he ascended to heaven
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
3,086
700
113
#15
“LGW is not about us making points…”

yeah but Lol In a discussion you sort of need to read someone’s point and then articulate a reply with hopefully some points you’re making ….it’s part of the process of having a discussion

as for the rest of what your saying … the scriptures i shared there were making a very specific point to the comment I had replied to that Paul’s preaching was coming from the ot prophets and law what they had foretold would happen paul was saying the same things as Moses and the prophets said would come only Paul as the other apostles were revelators of the scriptures in the ot showing the world how it applies to all of us in Christ


There’s a sequence to the Bible the law and prophets foretold the coming of the messiah and gospel , then the gospel came and fulfilled what the law and prophets said would happen

“For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭11:13‬ ‭

The law and the prophets were until John:

since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭16:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

after this Jesus sent out witnesses and gave then his spirit and revelation so th at tbey could inderrrsnd the scriptures and how they apply to all creation through the gospel

so just one example of what I’m saying this prophecy to israel in the ot appx 700 bc

“Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭53:4-6, 10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Then was fulfilled when Jesus was born and lived and preached the gospel and suffered and died for sins offering salvation to all who believe then rose up again from death and ascended to heavens throne

Paul’s ministry along with Peter and John and all the apostles was to witness to all people that Jesus is the king promosed messiah of Israel and salvation in him had been extended to all people beginning at Jerusalem to all people who believe the gospels record and witness

pauls role is a revelator of Old Testament prophecy like all the prophecies of Jesus dying for the peoples sins oauls doctrine is revelation of how that applies to us in Christ now of all nations and peoples

Just to understand who paul is compared to Jesus

Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God, (which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,) concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; and declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: by whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name: among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭1:1-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

And to understsnd where Paul’s doctrine came from

“Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come: that Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭26:22-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬


It’s the same Jesus said here he was sending them with

“And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me. Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, and said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: and that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. And ye are witnesses of these things. And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭24:44-49‬ ‭


one message God has been articulating for a long time was fulfilled in the gospel Paul is one of those many messengers who Jesus gave revelation so they could articulate the gospel better to the church after he ascended to heaven
Discussion is good, and I agree with your points about the Gospel fulfilling OT prophecy and the role of Paul.
(I look forward to other comments you may have regarding the TOP :^)
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
15,104
6,095
113
#16
Discussion is good, and I agree with your points about the Gospel fulfilling OT prophecy and the role of Paul.
(I look forward to other comments you may have regarding the TOP :^)
Yes I hadn’t really disagreed with anything either was just trying to add a point or point out something already there I guess is better way to state it

pauls teachings really are meant to be taken in with peters and johns and James and most importantly Jesus teachings in the gospel.

If you take an element of messianic prophecy like Isaiah 53 hindreds of years before jesus was born and fulfilled it

“Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭53:4-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and then consider what Jesus did in his life on earth in the gospel and finally element three , the apostles like Paul were preaching about and offering revelation of after it had happened for instance Paul

“For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; ( Paul is referencing the prophets writings and the law )

and that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Peter also

“For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:

who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.”( Peter is directly referencing isaih 53 also preaching revelation about Jesus from the scriptures )
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭2:21-25‬ ‭

Paul touching on the same thing

“Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:20-21‬ ‭

pauls wonderful and a big part of the New Testament but the things Jesus taught and all of the other apostles taught is how we can interpret Paul’s letters correctly.

The Old Testament foretells of Jesus and the gospel and salvation for all people who believe

then Jesus came and fulfilled everything it promised

Then sent the message out from Jerusalem by his chosen and ordained messengers or “apostles” who received his spirit and revelation of the gospel
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
3,086
700
113
#17
Yes I hadn’t really disagreed with anything either was just trying to add a point or point out something already there I guess is better way to state it

pauls teachings really are meant to be taken in with peters and johns and James and most importantly Jesus teachings in the gospel.

If you take an element of messianic prophecy like Isaiah 53 hindreds of years before jesus was born and fulfilled it

“Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭53:4-6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and then consider what Jesus did in his life on earth in the gospel and finally element three , the apostles like Paul were preaching about and offering revelation of after it had happened for instance Paul

“For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; ( Paul is referencing the prophets writings and the law )

and that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Peter also

“For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously:

who his own self bare our sins in his own body on the tree, that we, being dead to sins, should live unto righteousness: by whose stripes ye were healed. For ye were as sheep going astray; but are now returned unto the Shepherd and Bishop of your souls.”( Peter is directly referencing isaih 53 also preaching revelation about Jesus from the scriptures )
‭‭1 Peter‬ ‭2:21-25‬ ‭

Paul touching on the same thing

“Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:20-21‬ ‭

pauls wonderful and a big part of the New Testament but the things Jesus taught and all of the other apostles taught is how we can interpret Paul’s letters correctly.

The Old Testament foretells of Jesus and the gospel and salvation for all people who believe

then Jesus came and fulfilled everything it promised

Then sent the message out from Jerusalem by his chosen and ordained messengers or “apostles” who received his spirit and revelation of the gospel
You are correct to note that relating the TOP and the TOJ comprise the heart of hermeneutics. While the TOJ occurred first, the TOP were written first, so it is a complicated relationship. Even though Mark and Luke assisted Paul, their gospels incorporated and recorded what had been preserved orally by apostolic witnesses for a few years, some of which Paul may not have known very well if at all, because Luke says in LK 1:1-4 that he wrote after investigating the oral accounts of eyewitnesses.

Isaiah 53:4-6 is indeed an amazing prophecy, because it so specifically summarizes the gist of the Gospel, as in the Scripture you cited by Peter and Paul.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
15,104
6,095
113
#18
You are correct to note that relating the TOP and the TOJ comprise the heart of hermeneutics. While the TOJ occurred first, the TOP were written first, so it is a complicated relationship. Even though Mark and Luke assisted Paul, their gospels incorporated and recorded what had been preserved orally by apostolic witnesses for a few years, some of which Paul may not have known very well if at all, because Luke says in LK 1:1-4 that he wrote after investigating the oral accounts of eyewitnesses.

Isaiah 53:4-6 is indeed an amazing prophecy, because it so specifically summarizes the gist of the Gospel, as in the Scripture you cited by Peter and Paul.
Yes I like the past , present , future aspect of the Bible given the “present “was the generetion of Christ Jesus.

i like the prophecy , fulfillment , and then witness forward to the end aspect of it all I think it helps us understand.

prophecy

“Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭7:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Fulfillment in the gospel

“And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, And they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭1:21-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“but these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.”
‭‭John‬ ‭20:31‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Witness by the apostles forward to us now with added revelation for example “ more of how this matter whatever it is in this case the apostles say a lot about the son of God in tbe epistles from revelation but the gospels themselves reveal the son of God to believers in him

The epistle reveals for instance

“but when the fulness of the time was come,

God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, to redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭4:4-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:20-21‬ ‭KJV

“Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying,

The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand:

repent ye, and believe the gospel.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬
“The law and the prophets were until John:

since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭16:16‬ ‭

the gospels reveal him and are the foundations of all the epistles have to reveal and also reflects back to prophecies and figures in the law and prophets like

“And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:14-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and so then we go back to Moses and tbat situation to better understand it ect ect

“And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.

And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.”
‭‭Numbers‬ ‭21:8-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

remembering the serpents were there attacking and killing them because God judged them and sent the serpents to do that fornthier grumbling and rebellion continuously but he did offer them a way to live through this jidgement of serpents all blaze …….it doesn’t say this in the Bible but it seems to me that gone who believes what Moses told them about the serpent would have looked to it as soon as he was bitten so he would live by Gods word and his wrath would be taken away from the person based on them acting in faith believing they would live dismissing they would die for the serpents were deadly

“and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭2:2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:32-33‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Im sorry I’ve rambled off, I really like the prophecy , fulfillment , and then witness and further prophecy for all people aspect of the Bible a lot
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
3,086
700
113
#19
Yes I like the past , present , future aspect of the Bible given the “present “was the generetion of Christ Jesus.

i like the prophecy , fulfillment , and then witness forward to the end aspect of it all I think it helps us understand.

prophecy

“Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭7:14‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Fulfillment in the gospel

“And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.

Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, And they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭1:21-23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“but these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.”
‭‭John‬ ‭20:31‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Witness by the apostles forward to us now with added revelation for example “ more of how this matter whatever it is in this case the apostles say a lot about the son of God in tbe epistles from revelation but the gospels themselves reveal the son of God to believers in him

The epistle reveals for instance

“but when the fulness of the time was come,

God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law, to redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.

And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.

Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭4:4-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.

Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭5:20-21‬ ‭KJV

“Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying,

The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand:

repent ye, and believe the gospel.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:14-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬
“The law and the prophets were until John:

since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presseth into it.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭16:16‬ ‭

the gospels reveal him and are the foundations of all the epistles have to reveal and also reflects back to prophecies and figures in the law and prophets like

“And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up: that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:14-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

and so then we go back to Moses and tbat situation to better understand it ect ect

“And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live.

And Moses made a serpent of brass, and put it upon a pole, and it came to pass, that if a serpent had bitten any man, when he beheld the serpent of brass, he lived.”
‭‭Numbers‬ ‭21:8-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

remembering the serpents were there attacking and killing them because God judged them and sent the serpents to do that fornthier grumbling and rebellion continuously but he did offer them a way to live through this jidgement of serpents all blaze …….it doesn’t say this in the Bible but it seems to me that gone who believes what Moses told them about the serpent would have looked to it as soon as he was bitten so he would live by Gods word and his wrath would be taken away from the person based on them acting in faith believing they would live dismissing they would die for the serpents were deadly

“and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭2:2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:32-33‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Im sorry I’ve rambled off, I really like the prophecy , fulfillment , and then witness and further prophecy for all people aspect of the Bible a lot
That is good rambling, but getting back to our study of the TOP, next are these:

TOP #10: Although God’s creation reveals His power and love, godless people suppress truth and exchange it for the lie of idolatry. [RM 1:18-25, cf. #3] This is what Adam and Eve did.

TOP #11: Sinful desires include sexual lusts or perversions. [RM 1:24-27] This may be why A&E became aware of being naked following their sin.

TOP #12: A depraved mind is manifested by wickedness. [RM 1:28] This truth was illustrated by the sin of Cain (GN 4:5-8). The following three TOP list several forms of depravity.

TOP #13: Wickedness or evil includes the sins of greed, murder, strife, deceit and malice. [RM 1:29] Cain murdered and lied (GN 4:8-9), and Jesus condemned the hatred of the Pharisees as akin to murder and lying in JN 8:44. Paul said greed is a root of many sins in 1TM 6:10 (cf. 2TM 3:2).

TOP #14: Sins of God-haters or atheists also include gossip, slander, insolence, arrogance, and pride. [RM 1:30] Many OT passages identify pride as a root of many sins that precedes destruction (PR 16:18).

TOP #15: Additional sins include disobedience of parents and being senseless, faithless, heartless and ruthless. [RM 1:30b-31] Honoring one’s parents is one of the Ten Commandments (EX 20:12).
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
15,104
6,095
113
#20
That is good rambling, but getting back to our study of the TOP, next are these:

TOP #10: Although God’s creation reveals His power and love, godless people suppress truth and exchange it for the lie of idolatry. [RM 1:18-25, cf. #3] This is what Adam and Eve did.

TOP #11: Sinful desires include sexual lusts or perversions. [RM 1:24-27] This may be why A&E became aware of being naked following their sin.

TOP #12: A depraved mind is manifested by wickedness. [RM 1:28] This truth was illustrated by the sin of Cain (GN 4:5-8). The following three TOP list several forms of depravity.

TOP #13: Wickedness or evil includes the sins of greed, murder, strife, deceit and malice. [RM 1:29] Cain murdered and lied (GN 4:8-9), and Jesus condemned the hatred of the Pharisees as akin to murder and lying in JN 8:44. Paul said greed is a root of many sins in 1TM 6:10 (cf. 2TM 3:2).

TOP #14: Sins of God-haters or atheists also include gossip, slander, insolence, arrogance, and pride. [RM 1:30] Many OT passages identify pride as a root of many sins that precedes destruction (PR 16:18).

TOP #15: Additional sins include disobedience of parents and being senseless, faithless, heartless and ruthless. [RM 1:30b-31] Honoring one’s parents is one of the Ten Commandments (EX 20:12).
“TOP #12: A depraved mind is manifested by wickedness.”

i would even say driven and corrupted by it and then also manifest as it runs it’s course I feel like that’s one of mans battles we must face up to

James I feel really finishes up a lot of Paul’s writings and fits well with them

“My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing.

If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him.

….Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: but every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.”
‭‭James‬ ‭1:2-5, 12-15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

i feel Like it’s a process from innocent children to corrupted by the world around us and after a slippery slope falling and following temptations through our flesh rether than our conscience telling us not to do it . eventually we become what we have spent our lives doing and serving .

it’s sort of we are creating who we are by what we take in and cherish and pay attention to and follow after in our lives and that comes back to what it is we really believe in our heart ? what is important to us ? This will guide our ways