Why would God create someone knowing

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Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
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#21
When we are slaves to sin, we are self-willed, self-determined, self-sufficient etc. By continuing to live for ourselves, we are choosing not to live for Him that died for all and rose again. That is an act of volation; an expression of free will.

That's how a sinner can be a slave, bound by the chains of sin, while simultaneously exercising free will, preferring to be god over their own life, rather than choosing the life God would have us all live.


Free will is the power to make a decision independently. We either live in wilful ignorance, falling in favour of our flesh, or we live by faith in the Son of God, who loves us and gave His life for us.

One choice; no alternatives. We are given the freedom to choose, but with there being no alternative, other than the flesh, or the Spirit, we are figuratively shackled/restrained, like a slave, compelled, with no smorgasbord of options to pick from.
You seem to think "free will" and choice are one in the same and I reject. I disagree on this completely because our choice is always going to be limited by out nature, be that in sin, or in the Spirit. No choice you make before you're born again can please God. Paul tells us no man CAN please God. Then once He gives us grace and spiritually resurrects us and reconciles us to His Spirit it's Him that empowers us to make the choices that honor Him, either way our choices are still a slave to our nature. So the term "free will" is just not accurate ever. we NEVER have a "FREE" will according to God. You can disagree, but you're disagreeing with God. I personally don't think that's wise. Choice does NOT= free will.
 
Jan 30, 2025
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#22
That's why it does not exist. There is no such thing as free will given how constrained by many factors
our will is, not the least of which is being taken captive to the will of the devil as a lover of darkness.
In that context, I don't disagree. There can be no independence from a sovereign God, only deception, the lie that such a thing actually exists or is attainable. Freedom would necessitate being free from bondage or servitude, which none of us are.

Choice without alternative options?!
We make a sole choice between good and evil. What other alternatives are there?

You seem to think "free will" and choice are one in the same and I reject. I disagree on this completely because our choice is always going to be limited by out nature, be that in sin, or in the Spirit. No choice you make before you're born again can please God. Paul tells us no man CAN please God. Then once He gives us grace and spiritually resurrects us and reconciles us to His Spirit it's Him that empowers us to make the choices that honor Him, either way our choices are still a slave to our nature. So the term "free will" is just not accurate ever. we NEVER have a "FREE" will according to God. You can disagree, but you're disagreeing with God. I personally don't think that's wise. Choice does NOT= free will.
If I had used self-willed and God's purpose for allowing it, in place of free will, I might have better communicated my insight. I don't disagree with anything you have written.
 

Jimbone

Senior Member
Aug 22, 2014
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#23
In that context, I don't disagree. There can be no independence from a sovereign God, only deception, the lie that such a thing actually exists or is attainable. Freedom would necessitate being free from bondage or servitude, which none of us are.

We make a sole choice between good and evil. What other alternatives are there?


If I had used self-willed and God's purpose for allowing it, in place of free will, I might have better communicated my insight. I don't disagree with anything you have written.
Absolutely, we defiantly agree. I'm also not trying to just be very nit picky about the "exact right word to use" just because, and many times I do say something about knowing what you mean, but just not technically liking the term "free"will. But I do understand what people mean in general when they use it. It's just quite a big topic around here in case you couldn't tell. :LOL:

I get you you though and sorry if I was coming across too strong the first reply. I of course believe we are to choose and these choices matter, there is without a doubt right and wrong we have to choose from all the time.
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
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#24
In that context, I don't disagree. There can be no independence from a sovereign God, only deception, the lie that such a thing actually exists or is attainable. Freedom would necessitate being free from bondage or servitude, which none of us are.

We make a sole choice between good and evil. What other alternatives are there?


If I had used self-willed and God's purpose for allowing it, in place of free will, I might have better communicated my insight. I don't disagree with anything you have written.
Good/God is one choice; evil/ignoring God is the alternative choice.
 
Jan 30, 2025
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#25
Absolutely, we defiantly agree. And sorry if I was coming across too strong the first reply. I of course believe we are to choose and these choices matter, there is without a doubt right and wrong we have to choose from all the time.
You have nothing to apologise for. I have no issue with being questioned, confronted, or objected to. Reaching agreement in the truth is all that matters to me.

I appreciate that forums ain't for the faint-hearted, I view this as a warm welcome!

Good/God is one choice; evil/ignoring God is the alternative choice.
I get that, but we can't have our cake and eat it can we? We choose one and renounce the other. That's two options, once choice, no other alternatives.
 

homwardbound

Senior Member
Oct 24, 2012
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#27
How are we slave of sin, and have free will? We have agency no doubt, we're told to "choose". I in no way disagree that we have choice and that choice matters. So please don't throw me in the "we're all robots" camp yet.
But I just don't like the term free will, I think it implies something that isn't true. Until we are born again we are slaves of sin. Well at least any of us that sins. Then we are born of the Spirit and are slave of obedience leading to righteousness. I know we can debate this endlessly without ever moving an inch either way, but this is what His word says.
Once choose, God, takes over, Then, Father of the risen Son teaches his children new. Those that believe God, stand in it, no matter what troubles happen, are new, do God’s work righteousness automatically. Taking no credit to self, pride ls killed in these born new kids, born new by Father’s gift. Guilt is taken away. To grow up unto maturity as Daddy, PaPa permits, knowing what is best for each child of his
i know, as I bet you do also. When confronted with sin one can’t do some and are learning to let go of the rest, while growing up into maturity. Hebrews 1:6
Hebrews 5:12- Chapter 6:3
1 Cor 3
the new begins, at born again from Father of risen Son for us to leave guilt and pride by the way side
you, and I have made our choice. We, believe God Father through risen Son Jesus we are forgiven, reconciled at that one time willing death of Son. We can say, thank you, it is finished, I will now, daily stand in trust to you Father, to teach me new.
Father has not failed me, been always faithful, carrying on the born new work of risen Son in and through me and everyone else in belief as well, doing the same through all that will not quit belief to see and become at rest in thanksgiving and praise all sin taken away
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
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#28
You have nothing to apologise for. I have no issue with being questioned, confronted, or objected to. Reaching agreement in the truth is all that matters to me.

I appreciate that forums ain't for the faint-hearted, I view this as a warm welcome!



I get that, but we can't have our cake and eat it can we? We choose one and renounce the other. That's two options, once choice, no other alternatives.
Yes, two qualitatively opposite options (good/God or evil/atheism), one choice of either, and no other essentially different alternatives that establish MFW.

(Glad we got that figured out :^)
 

lrs68

Active member
Dec 30, 2024
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#29
Foreknowledge is not Predestination.

When we read about Moses, Joshua, many of the Prophets, they all made numerous excuses how they were lacking in several areas required to fulfill their destination. God even had to CONVINCE most of them. If God hadn't CONVINCED them we would have read someone else doing what they did.

Look at the Judges and the lineage of Kings. All were ANOINTED with OIL (the Old Testament version of filled with the Holy Spirit) and several still became evil and rejected God like the first king Saul. Whenever a new king was crowned God sent the Priest to Bless and cover the king with OIL. Most did good for about 10 years and then rejected God.

^
Perfect example of Foreknowledge is not Predestination.
 

GWH

Groovy
Oct 19, 2024
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#30
Foreknowledge is not Predestination.

When we read about Moses, Joshua, many of the Prophets, they all made numerous excuses how they were lacking in several areas required to fulfill their destination. God even had to CONVINCE most of them. If God hadn't CONVINCED them we would have read someone else doing what they did.

Look at the Judges and the lineage of Kings. All were ANOINTED with OIL (the Old Testament version of filled with the Holy Spirit) and several still became evil and rejected God like the first king Saul. Whenever a new king was crowned God sent the Priest to Bless and cover the king with OIL. Most did good for about 10 years and then rejected God.

^
Perfect example of Foreknowledge is not Predestination.
Well, true, but let's use didactic or pedagogical rather than historical passages to learn doctrine and dogma.
(Interpretation of those is iffy enough :^)
 

lrs68

Active member
Dec 30, 2024
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#31
Well, true, but let's use didactic or pedagogical rather than historical passages to learn doctrine and dogma.
(Interpretation of those is iffy enough :^)
Historical Passages should be the only focus because a good teacher will easily be able to show all intentions from every view while building a platform based upon truths and facts.
 

sawdust

Well-known member
Feb 12, 2024
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#32
Why would God create/make someone if He already knows they are going to choose to be evil and go to hell?
Maybe He didn't. We know that all things were made by, for and through the Son (Col.1:16). We also know that during the Incarnation He could limit Himself to knowing certain things like the day of His return (Mk.13:32). So, why not limit Himself to not knowing what a person would choose whenever He creates that soul? After He has created the individual, He could allow Himself to return to the full measure of His omniscience.
 

Believer08

Active member
Jan 27, 2025
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#33
Maybe He didn't. We know that all things were made by, for and through the Son (Col.1:16). We also know that during the Incarnation He could limit Himself to knowing certain things like the day of His return (Mk.13:32). So, why not limit Himself to not knowing what a person would choose whenever He creates that soul? After He has created the individual, He could allow Himself to return to the full measure of His omniscience.
I have also wondered this myself, but feared it would be deemed heretical by others. Is it possible that the Father can do that as well?
 

Genez

Junior Member
Oct 12, 2017
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#34
Why would God create/make someone if He already knows they are going to choose to be evil and go to hell?

Since it is God's desire that all men believe? The unbeliever's existence is tangible proof that God
does not create people to believe. That God succeeded in a miracle. Creating a creature having free will to think for himself.


I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made
for all men— for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives
in all godliness and holiness. This is good, and pleases God our Savior, who wants all men
to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth." 1 Timothy 2:1-4
grace and peace ............
 
Jan 30, 2025
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#35
Why would God create/make someone if He already knows they are going to choose to be evil and go to hell?
I read some interesting comments, like GOD continued with HIS Creation plan even though we would disobey.... I have heard this before, but powerful......

I often think it was not all about us, it seems a 1/3 of the angels rebelled after we yielded to temptation, (so to speak)

we choosing the path of rebellion against GOD ALMIGHTY with those fallen angels.... yet in THE GOD of Jacobs TENDER MERCIES HE WILL REDEEM some humans from our/(my great wicked) rebellion, by HIS AMAZING GRACE & with the Blood of HIS ONLY SON......JESUS will Reign in a KINGDOM, He Purchased with HIS Very OWN BLOOD & Obedience, LOVE For The FATHER....

PRAISE JESUS FOR HE IS WORTHY, a Kingdom BORN in LOYALTY to HIS FATHER, not the one were in, born in rebellion. & where i am the chief sinner
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
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#36
How are we slave of sin, and have free will? We have agency no doubt, we're told to "choose". I in no way disagree that we have choice and that choice matters. So please don't throw me in the "we're all robots" camp yet.
But I just don't like the term free will, I think it implies something that isn't true. Until we are born again we are slaves of sin. Well at least any of us that sins. Then we are born of the Spirit and are slave of obedience leading to righteousness. I know we can debate this endlessly without ever moving an inch either way, but this is what His word says.
How about we choose to sin would be a better way of explaining it.

We can at any time choose something good to say or to do for others but we usually don't.

Obviously, we do not have a perfect free will and our free will is bent towards the negative.

We do make lots of choices everyday and we have a free will that is at times very distorted.

The gospel is empowered by Jesus to cut through our bent nature and it enables folk to say, yes!
 

Inquisitor

Well-known member
Mar 17, 2022
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#37
Ever seen a smoker develope thier habit ? First they start choosing to smoke freely they think it’s cool or thier fanily does it ect friends but the point is they aren’t enslaved to the cigarette until they expose tbier body to the chemicals and for awhile it doesn’t control them but after awhile the sinker is addicted and needs to get a cigarette

He wasn’t born a slave to smoking but he became one through his choices .that’s how adults become slaves to sin we touch and feel and see and take in the forbidden and corrupt and our flesh begins to crave it

So those desires become like a bondage or yoke of slavery . It’s who we choose to serve that we become servants of

“Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey;

whether of sin unto death,

or of obedience unto righteousness?”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

whej a human lives eventually we developed cravings and habits but they don’t control us or have great influence until after we partake some times freely . Sin is the same way that
Addictions apparently can form in a month or two and we mostly live lives packed full of addictions.

Why are addictions so easy to adopt but so seriously difficult to stop?
 
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#38
to answer your question, one might say why did GOD create the angels WHEN HE KNEW they would rebel....

I gather choice...

but your question is very deep, hard for a pea brain like myself to comprehend... what a world... yet my answer above actually helps me, thanks for helping me remember how Worthy JESUS IS...
 
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#39
Addictions apparently can form in a month or two and we mostly live lives packed full of addictions.

Why are addictions so easy to adopt but so seriously difficult to stop?
I gather you know this,

I would venture to say control... dark cords/bands of control, the flesh tightens its grip on me, death chokes me.... I lose my strength to resist the fight.....

Praise JESUS The Chain Breaker, Praise HIS Glorious NAME,,and again I say thank you JESUS
 
Jan 30, 2025
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#40
How about we choose to sin would be a better way of explaining it.

We can at any time choose something good to say or to do for others but we usually don't.

Obviously, we do not have a perfect free will and our free will is bent towards the negative.

We do make lots of choices everyday and we have a free will that is at times very distorted.

The gospel is empowered by Jesus to cut through our bent nature and it enables folk to say, yes!
I like your words, and I think of my lack of awareness, consequences (nobody see's me) & lack of Light (education) on my palate.... & I must not forget the inclination to the self ( as I suppose you surmised)