The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”

When faced with the truth of people falling away from the faith, departing from the faith, etc etc…people who believe in the doctrine of the impossibility of apostasy typically says “he/she never had faith” or “he/she was never truly saved to begin with”

But….

That means it’s entirely possible for someone to believe they are saved but not be…

How comforting is that?

I wonder if these people would apply that same line of reasoning with themselves? Or are they the exception to it? I wonder how consistent they would be? If they themselves depart, would they say they were never saved?

If so, then when would they know for sure???

Are any of them absolutely, positively certain without a doubt they are saved at this very moment???

Of course they’d say yes…

But…

If any of them depart from their faith, all their OSAS friends will say...

You were never saved to begin with!!

So, according to their view, it is possible for someone to believe they are saved but not be!!!

Not only were these individuals not Christians now, but they were never Christians in the first place, despite the fact that in the past these people did everything that current devoted believers of OSAS will cite as proof of their own conversion!

It can be challenging for individuals to apply the same reasoning to themselves as they do to others. If someone who believes in OSAS were to depart from their faith, they might struggle with the question of whether they were ever truly saved themselves. This inconsistency can lead to confusion and doubt about their own salvation.

If someone departs from their faith, they may feel a loss of that assurance, leading to uncertainty about their own standing before God.

If someone who believes in OSAS were to depart from their faith, they might grapple with questions about their own salvation.

The ugly reality behind the supposed comfort of the doctrine of once saved always is It's supposed to provide believers with the assurance of salvation, but logically, it does the opposite. Those who live like faithful Christians, who sincerely (to every appearance) describe themselves as being children of God, can still fall away and thereby prove that they were never regenerated/saved at all. To be true and honest with their belief, no person who believes in OSAS would categorize anyone to be saved, as such an individual will prove their salvation to be genuine by dying to the faith.

On what basis does God send someone to hell?

If you said things a bit differently than I did is the conclusion still the same? Yes, it is, as you wrote that you’d need to give up your assurance of salvation if you adopt OSAS, and that is the same idea behind what I said. I’m not seeing the problem here.

There isn't a problem as such - I am not disagreeing with you . . .

I tend to approach issues like this more like this:
The Bible says the person who is believing has eternal life
The Bible says the person who is not believing does not have eternal life (the wrath of God remains on him)

Saying it as above does not state OSAS or non-OSAS: it simply says what is necessary.
Putting parameters on the Bible with preconceived doctrine (such as "eternal security") causes one to miss the simplicity of the text

I dont find a single verse that says people are forgiven in advance.

While I agree with the substance of your post, God does cast people into the lake of fire. I'm just trying to ascertain the basis for this. It was stated that all sins have been paid for. If this be so, then one would assume that sin is not the cause of one being cast into hell. I'm trying to understand, then, on what basis does one end up there.

Actually, people cast themselves into hell. The basis is this IMO:

A person—even a theist—might think that God would not permit evil, suffering and hell to exist. People who are mystified by evil and repulsed by its punishment do not realize that the essential aspect of being a human rather than a robot or subhuman creature is moral free will (MFW), which is what enables a person to experience love and meaning. This is what makes humans different from animals, whose behavior is governed mainly by instinct. This is what it means to be created in God’s image (GN 1:26-27; robot or responsible)?

God could not force people to return His love without abrogating their humanity. If God were to zap ungodly souls, it would be tantamount to forcing conversions at gunpoint, which would not be free and genuine. If God were to prevent people from behaving hatefully, then He would need to prevent them from thinking evilly, which would make human souls programmed automatons.

For reasons we may understand only sufficiently rather than completely, God designed reality so that experiencing His presence is less than compelling, so that even Jesus (God the Son) on the cross cried out “My God [the Father], why have you forsaken [taken God the Spirit from] me?” (MT 27:46, PS 51:11) This phenomenon is sometimes called “distanciation”, because we experience God as distant from us and “unknown” (ACTS 17:23), even though He is close or immanent, “for in Him we live and move and have our being” (ACTS 17:28). Distanciation is not forsaken, but it provides MFW.

MFW only exists when there is the possibility of choosing between two qualitatively opposite moral options that we call good and evil. These options are opposites because of essentially different consequences for choosing them. Choosing good results in blessing, life and heaven; and choosing evil results in cursing, death and hell (DT 30:19). This is why hell as well as heaven exists. It is the just consequence for choosing evil rather than God.

The Spirit of God is good: love, peace and joy (GL 5:22-23). Therefore, whoever rejects the Lord is spiritually separated from Him (IS 59:2) and thereby chooses the evil or satanic spirit of hatred, strife and misery and reaps the just consequence called “hell” in the afterlife (GL 6:7-9, HB 9:27-28). These options were presented by Moses to the Israelites (DT 30:19), and Jesus referred to this fundamental choice in terms of a fish or egg versus a snake or scorpion (LK 11:11-13). Life… or Curse? (GN 3:24, RV 22:1-2)

God created theoretical evil or the possibility of rejecting Him as an option that actualizes MFW/free human personality. As such it is necessary and even good (GN 1:31). Of course, it was wrong for Satan (1JN 3:8) and humanity (RM 5:12) to make evil actual by choosing to Sin or reject Faith in God’s Lordship. Sin: ignoring God/God’s Word.

God loves a cheerful giver (2CR 9:7), which means He desires people to cooperate with Him happily because of love and gratitude for His grace rather than to cower before Him because of fear of hell. Love must be evoked; it cannot be coerced. And again, when souls sin or do NOT choose to love God freely, it is perfectly just (loving and logical) for them to reap the appropriate consequence (GL 6:7-9) or hell.

1. The Bible doesn't teach future sin is automatically forgiven, as can be seen from the story of Ananias and Sapphira and from the book of John where if we confess our sins He is faithful to forgive them. Not automatic, otherwise that verse would not exist. But despite this, if its a yes or no question i will answer YES. Because IF we do confess those sins, God IS indeed faithful to forgive those future sins we havent even commited yet.

2. The exact amount is: When you lose faith. That is how much. Its different for each person I would assume, but the people who sin against their conscience to the point where it gets seared and they run off into the world and NEVER COME BACK, remain in unbelief and die in that state, they have apostasized and have trodden under the blood of the son of God, by which. they were sanctified.

To confess is to come into agreement with God.
All sin was dealt with at the cross.

It is not people's actions that are the question....... it is God's response and I think Scripture tells us that those who are His (saved is saved) are chastened sometimes even unto death, it does not state they are un-regenerated, un-redeemed, un-justified.

What did you think Jesus was offering when you received His gift of salvation, a life of probation hoping you make it to the final day?
That is no way to live the Christian life my friend, there is no grace and peace in it.

That goes against scripture. Scripture teaches that people are cast into the lake of fire.
If you are suggesting that people fit themselves for destruction then I agree.

All of this misses my point. I'm interested in whether or not God knows what future actions He will take? And did He know He would take them all along or is He winging it in response to the actions of mankind?

The answer to these questions make a divide within the church. If the issue were resolved, there would be greater unity in the body of Christ.

I know and it's an important point. I was simply responding to a post that said all sin was paid for. I was just investigating the consequences of such a belief.

Jesus was offering the same as He does today: eternal life to those who believe. And thats the point, to those who believe there is security of the BELIEVER, but no security for the UNBELIEVER.

I've heard of this idea that if you just sin too much God will kill you and take you to heaven, what a ridiculous American idea that is. Unheard of in all of Christian history. Sounds like something they invented so you can keep loving the world and your sin AND get your ticked punched into heaven as well, the american drive through fashion of 1-2-3 repeat after me. America truly has destroyed Christianity as it was once known.

I see that what I posted elsewhere regarding God's knowledge of the future is also relevant here:

Just as regarding divine omniscience it seems absurd to say that God can make a rock too big for Him to move, so also regarding omniscience, it seems absurd to believe that God can know whether a volitional or morally accountable soul will choose to accept Jesus as Lord before the person even exists, and if God forces souls to choose Christ or not, then that would make the biblical history of God's POS absurd. This makes belief in MFW the preferred interpretation of problematic Scriptures IMO.

In terms of what you asked, God knew He would take along to heaven all who satisfied His RFS, but He allows souls freedom to fly into hell if they so choose.

(I am very glad we share concern for Christian unity :^)

I don't exactly understand what point you're trying to make by saying "all sin was paid for", or the "consequences" of what belief? I'm not aware of what part of what I said you're saying is wrong. It's just going over my head here, are you saying that everyone is forgiven because all sin was paid for? That's all I can pull from what you're saying. Why does there need to be a hell if all sin has been paid for? This sounds like universalist nonsense that I believe the Bible very clearly teaches against. I honestly can't believe this is what you mean, I don't think it's what you mean, but it's all I can ascertain from your comments. If you could tell me more directly what you mean to remedy my ignorance, I'd greatly appreciate it.

You seem not to want to answer my questions. If God knows all His works from the beginning, and if, say, salvation is a work of God, then doesn't God know whom He will save?
In other words, instead of considering the choices of men, I'm viewing things from the works of God, which are known to Him already. So, if salvation is a work of God, doesn't God already know who He will save? Hasn't He known all along?

No, I don't believe in universalism. Nor do I believe Jesus died on the cross and paid for the sins of every person. Another poster made that statement. That's why I asked on what basis God sends someone to hell. It is my understanding that people are in hell due to sin, but if all sins have been paid for as the poster suggested, then they obviously don't believe people are in hell as the result of sin. So I'm wondering on what basis does God send people to hell.

Possibly, unless such divine knowledge is absurd or akin to believing God can make something too big for Him to move.

You obviously were not raised in a Baptist church where every Sunday folks were invited to accept Christ, who paid the penalty for every sinner. IOW, although God's love is unconditional, His forgiveness is conditional upon repentance.

See my post #87 regarding the basis of going to hell.

No, I don't believe in universalism. Nor do I believe Jesus died on the cross and paid for the sins of every person. Another poster made that statement. That's why I asked on what basis God sends someone to hell. It is my understanding that people are in hell due to sin, but if all sins have been paid for as the poster suggested, then they obviously don't believe people are in hell as the result of sin. So I'm wondering on what basis does God send people to hell.

All who have commented on my post who are OSAS’ers, if you are saying one was never saved, then the same must also apply to you, or else you’re not consistent in your belief. I think you are making my point. Thanks. There is absolutely no security in OSAS. My work here is done.