The problem of the statement of “never saved to begin with”

When faced with the truth of people falling away from the faith, departing from the faith, etc etc…people who believe in the doctrine of the impossibility of apostasy typically says “he/she never had faith” or “he/she was never truly saved to begin with”

But….

That means it’s entirely possible for someone to believe they are saved but not be…

How comforting is that?

I wonder if these people would apply that same line of reasoning with themselves? Or are they the exception to it? I wonder how consistent they would be? If they themselves depart, would they say they were never saved?

If so, then when would they know for sure???

Are any of them absolutely, positively certain without a doubt they are saved at this very moment???

Of course they’d say yes…

But…

If any of them depart from their faith, all their OSAS friends will say...

You were never saved to begin with!!

So, according to their view, it is possible for someone to believe they are saved but not be!!!

Not only were these individuals not Christians now, but they were never Christians in the first place, despite the fact that in the past these people did everything that current devoted believers of OSAS will cite as proof of their own conversion!

It can be challenging for individuals to apply the same reasoning to themselves as they do to others. If someone who believes in OSAS were to depart from their faith, they might struggle with the question of whether they were ever truly saved themselves. This inconsistency can lead to confusion and doubt about their own salvation.

If someone departs from their faith, they may feel a loss of that assurance, leading to uncertainty about their own standing before God.

If someone who believes in OSAS were to depart from their faith, they might grapple with questions about their own salvation.

The ugly reality behind the supposed comfort of the doctrine of once saved always is It's supposed to provide believers with the assurance of salvation, but logically, it does the opposite. Those who live like faithful Christians, who sincerely (to every appearance) describe themselves as being children of God, can still fall away and thereby prove that they were never regenerated/saved at all. To be true and honest with their belief, no person who believes in OSAS would categorize anyone to be saved, as such an individual will prove their salvation to be genuine by dying to the faith.

How comforting is that?

I wonder if these people would apply that same line of reasoning with themselves? Or are they the exception to it? I wonder how consistent they would be? If they themselves depart, would they say they were never saved?

I think the confusion that people have is they classify people who were once saved as never saved, instead of classifying the ones who were never saved as those who were never Christian.

That is what happens when people are involved in a belief that cannot be backed with scripture. They argue from emotions—which is the argument of saying someone who was a Christian was never saved. It’s one based on emotion. Not truth.

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I most certainly have met people who without a doubt believe that apostasy cannot and does not exist.

By the very nature of their argument, they cannot accept the notion that someone who has sincerely
pledged faith in God can ever renounce their pledge. Because of their circular reasoning they have no other choice.
They believe that the word itself has not meaning in Christianity.

Now I ask you, have you ever met someone who believes that they are earning their salvation.
Working out their salvation in fear and trembling yes but earning...never.

OSAS has always been based on emotions.

They have no desire to concern themselves with self-examining themselves.
They have no desire to be watchful or keeping their lamps full.

After all, the King would never revoke the forgiveness of our debts...would He? (Matthew 18:21-35)

In the end OSAS is a drug, a drug that helps some to sleep better at night.

the flesh is against us, to deceive us.... trust & obey

And what evidence you do you have that they were born again, children of God?

And why do you argue against John. John said a person who rejects christ has never been saved.

Again, you’re arguing against the word. Not me.

I believe in the eternal security of the believer, but not OSAS, as I do believe it’s entirely possible for a Christian to live in such a way to be eternally lost. I find the ones who say someone is never saved to begin with to be a harsh statement. I wonder how they’d like if they applied their own argument to themselves?

And it is a conversation that goes in circles, as you said earlier. One will be told and taught they will always be saved, and you can never do anything to lose it, but if you end up in sin then you were never saved and you never had it to lose it. And around and around we go…it’s like a merry go round at a fair. If he has faith, he is saved…if he falls away, he was never saved to begin with…and so on and so on. If they apply their same argument to themselves, all who believe in OSAS are never saved…

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I believe in OSAS, but not if someone is struggling with their faith/in sin, that they were 'never saved in the first place'.

Salvation is a gift that isn't dependent on good behavior, because Jesus gives eternal life, not temporary life, to the person who believes in Him.

The 'never saved in the first place' line is usually from those who are back loading works into salvation, to say someone saved will be continuously faithful. That there is no 'carnal christian'.

This usually comes from the calvinist view. They believe in OSAS, but only for the chosen who are continously faithful.

Of course there are false converts, but not those who genuinely professed faith in Jesus and then get caught in wordly ways.

They are just struggling in their faith. Not never had it.

Even in the New testament we read of those who walked with Jesus and yet also walked away from him. 1 John 2:19

While John 10:28 shows us Jesus insures us we are eternally secure in him.

@TrustandObey,
Here are the absurd conclusions that result from the OSAS perspective of suggesting someone was never saved:

If one ever got lost, he was never found

If one falls, he never stood

If one was ever "cast forth," he was never in.

If one ever "withers," he was never green

If any man "draws back," it proves that he never had anything to draw back from

If one ever "falls away into spiritual darkness," he was never enlightened

If you "again get entangled in the pollutions of the world," it shows that you never escaped.

If you "put salvation away" you never had it to put away, and if you make shipwreck of faith, there was no ship of faith there.

If your lamp went out, you never had a lamp to go out, and if a harvest gets choked with thorns, then you never had a harvest.

If you buried your talents then you never had any talents in the first place.

Salt cannot lose its flavor, but if it does then you never had salt to begin with.

These conclusions result from the flawed logic and reasoning of OSAS proponents, which can lead to a distorted understanding of salvation and the Christian life.

I also think it’s funny how when people say what OSAS actually teaches in taking it to its logical and consistent conclusion, those people will be told by OSAS’ers they misrepresent OSAS. No, it’s not that they are misrepresenting OSAS. It is the fact OSAS’ers don’t like what their doctrine actually leads to, teaches and stands for.

When someone who is considered part of the elect departs from the faith, they were never the elect…and it leads other OSASER’s to fear they are not of the elect either.

I read in an article the following: “Many Calvinists have grappled with this fear through the centuries, perhaps most notably the hymnist William Cowper, author of "There Is a Fountain" and "God Moves in a Mysterious Way". Cowper fought a lifelong battle against depression, and one of its manifestations was the conviction that he did not belong to the elect. He suffered through decades of misery as a result.” [End of quote]

How do they know they aren’t going to fall away like the others? The others probably said they weren’t going to fall away either…look what happened.

I would hate knowing I could just as easily be considered never saved.

What a tragic way of life…

No, YOU argue against the following word of God:

MT 10:22, “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.”

RM 11:22, “Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.”

1CR 15:2, “By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.”

GL 5:4, “You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.”

CL 1:22-23, “But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.”

2THS 1:4-5, “Therefore, among God’s churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring. All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.”

2TM 2:12, “If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;”

HB 3:6&14, “But Christ is faithful as a son over God’s house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast… We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.”

HB 6:4-6, “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.”

HB 10:26-36, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God… So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.”

JM 1:12, “Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.”

2PT 1:10-11, “Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”

2PT 2:20, “If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.”

1JN 2:24-25, “See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.”

JUDE 21, “Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.”

RV 2:10, “Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.”

Passages that seem to support predestination may be harmonized with those supporting free will or perseverance as follows:

1. John 10:27-29 – being “unsnatchable” does not disallow a person from choosing to jump out of the “Father’s hand”. Also, in JN 6:37 “never drive away” does not mean a person cannot go away, and in JN 6:39 “I shall lose none” may refer to those who persevere or do not stray, who stand firm, who endure, who hold firmly, etc.

2. Romans 8:38-39 – “anything else” may refer to powers other than one’s own will.

3. Rom 14:4&10, Paul says not to judge a servant of Jesus, who is able to make them stand before God’s judgment. The verb “make” may mean “provide a way”.

4. 1Cor 1:8, 10:12 & 15:58, Paul says that Jesus will keep the Corinthian believers firm to the end, warns them that if they think they are standing firm to be careful that they don’t fall and therefore, stand firm, letting nothing move them from the work of the Lord. These verses indicate that standing firm involves a believer cooperating with the way Jesus provides.

5. 2Cor 1:20-24, Paul says that God makes us stand firm in Christ and anointed our hearts with the HS as a seal and deposit; it is by faith that we stand firm. This indicates that the way God provides for standing firm is for believers to persevere in cooperating with the HS.

6. Ephesians 1:11-14 – what is “predestined” is God’s plan to choose or elect anyone who desires to be “in him” or to satisfy GRFS. Thus, being “marked in him with a seal” does not abrogate moral free will (cf. 2PT 1:10f).

7. 1 John 2:19 – when synthesized with verse 24 must mean that those who repudiate their Faith do not eternally “belong”.

8. Psalm 135:6 – in light of “volitional verses” (such as DT 30:19 & MT 23:37) means that God “pleases” to permit limited free will.

9. Proverbs 21:1 – in order not to make God responsible for the sins cited in the rest of the chapter must mean that the “king’s heart” or will is choosing to cooperate with the Lord’s “hand” or directions.

No, YOU argue against the following word of God:

MT 10:22, “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.”

RM 11:22, “Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.”

1CR 15:2, “By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.”

GL 5:4, “You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.”

CL 1:22-23, “But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.”

2THS 1:4-5, “Therefore, among God’s churches we boast about your perseverance and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring. All this is evidence that God’s judgment is right, and as a result you will be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you are suffering.”

2TM 2:12, “If we endure, we will also reign with him. If we disown him, he will also disown us;”

HB 3:6&14, “But Christ is faithful as a son over God’s house. And we are his house, if we hold on to our courage and the hope of which we boast… We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.”

HB 6:4-6, “It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.”

HB 10:26-36, “If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God… So do not throw away your confidence; it will be richly rewarded. You need to persevere so that when you have done the will of God, you will receive what he has promised.”

JM 1:12, “Blessed is the man who perseveres under trial, because when he has stood the test, he will receive the crown of life that God has promised to those who love him.”

2PT 1:10-11, “Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall, and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.”

2PT 2:20, “If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.”

1JN 2:24-25, “See that what you have heard from the beginning remains in you. If it does, you also will remain in the Son and in the Father. And this is what he promised us—even eternal life.”

JUDE 21, “Keep yourselves in God’s love as you wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ to bring you to eternal life.”

RV 2:10, “Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life.”

Passages that seem to support predestination may be harmonized with those supporting free will or perseverance as follows:

1. John 10:27-29 – being “unsnatchable” does not disallow a person from choosing to jump out of the “Father’s hand”. Also, in JN 6:37 “never drive away” does not mean a person cannot go away, and in JN 6:39 “I shall lose none” may refer to those who persevere or do not stray, who stand firm, who endure, who hold firmly, etc.

2. Romans 8:38-39 – “anything else” may refer to powers other than one’s own will.

3. Rom 14:4&10, Paul says not to judge a servant of Jesus, who is able to make them stand before God’s judgment. The verb “make” may mean “provide a way”.

4. 1Cor 1:8, 10:12 & 15:58, Paul says that Jesus will keep the Corinthian believers firm to the end, warns them that if they think they are standing firm to be careful that they don’t fall and therefore, stand firm, letting nothing move them from the work of the Lord. These verses indicate that standing firm involves a believer cooperating with the way Jesus provides.

5. 2Cor 1:20-24, Paul says that God makes us stand firm in Christ and anointed our hearts with the HS as a seal and deposit; it is by faith that we stand firm. This indicates that the way God provides for standing firm is for believers to persevere in cooperating with the HS.

6. Ephesians 1:11-14 – what is “predestined” is God’s plan to choose or elect anyone who desires to be “in him” or to satisfy GRFS. Thus, being “marked in him with a seal” does not abrogate moral free will (cf. 2PT 1:10f).

7. 1 John 2:19 – when synthesized with verse 24 must mean that those who repudiate their Faith do not eternally “belong”.

8. Psalm 135:6 – in light of “volitional verses” (such as DT 30:19 & MT 23:37) means that God “pleases” to permit limited free will.

9. Proverbs 21:1 – in order not to make God responsible for the sins cited in the rest of the chapter must mean that the “king’s heart” or will is choosing to cooperate with the Lord’s “hand” or directions.

I believe in OSAS, but not if someone is struggling with their faith/in sin, that they were 'never saved in the first place'.

Salvation is a gift that isn't dependent on good behavior, because Jesus gives eternal life, not temporary life, to the person who believes in Him.

The 'never saved in the first place' line is usually from those who are back loading works into salvation, to say someone saved will be continuously faithful. That there is no 'carnal christian'.

This usually comes from the calvinist view. They believe in OSAS, but only for the chosen who are continuously faithful.

Of course there are false converts, but not those who genuinely professed faith in Jesus and then get caught in worldly ways.

They are just struggling in their faith. Not never had it.