Understanding God’s election

Yes, and I bet it is closer to correct than yours, which is more man-made than mine.
Why would you think Jesus was free to sin when incarnate but not when in heaven?
Since humanity was created in God's image and sinned, why do you think God is less free?
How dare you demand that God love you but not everyone else!
Seems illogical to me, although because neither of us knows which version is true,
it is also illogical to call each other liars rather than potentially mistaken.

Of course not.

You are not merely "potentially mistaken " but totally mistaken. It appears you have an extremely shallow view of biblical soteriology -- what God's purpose and redemptive plan for mankind is. You have no idea whatsoever that Jesus came into this world to free his Father's people FROM the power of sin and made the elect slaves of righteousness and of God (Rom 6:18, 22, respectively). Jesus did say that "if the Son sets you free, you will be FREE indeed" (Jn 8:36). But evidently you have no idea that Jesus came to conquer sin and death; and, yet, here you are glibly diminishing Christ's redemptive work so that you can exalt your idol of "freewill". I mean...If God, Jesus and man cannot sin, then we're not truly rational, personal, moral beings. You have Jesus utterly failing in his mission to set God's elect from the power of sin. He only freed the elect to the extent they freely choose to be set free.

Furthermore, when you say Jesus most certainly can sin, this amounts to a tacit denial of his divinity, since God cannot sin. This is what happens when you embrace extremes!

I understand that you believe my understanding of soteriology is "totally mistaken",
so please explain why you disagree with all of the following:

The normative way of stating the kerygma/GRFS in the NT is “Accept Christ Jesus as Lord” (as in 2CR 4:5 & CL 2:6).
The main points of Christian orthodoxy implicit in this statement can be explained or elaborated as follows:

1. There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or God (DT 6:4, JN 3:16, 2THS 1:6), who is both able (2TM 1:12) and willing (1TM 2:3-4) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
2. Human beings are selfish or sinful (RM 3:23, 2TM 3:2-4, CL 3:5), miserable (GL 5:19-21), and hopeless (EPH 2:12) or hell-bound at the judgment (MT 23:33 & 25:46) when they reject God’s salvation (JN 3:18, RM 2:5-11).
3. Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ and incarnate Son, the way that God has chosen (JN 3:16, ACTS 16:30-31, PHP 2:9-11) of providing salvation by means of his atoning death on the cross for the payment of the penalty for the sins of humanity (RM 3:22-25 & 5:9-11), followed by his resurrection to reign in heaven (1CR 15:14-28).
4. Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God’s justification in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (LK 2:11, JN 14:6, ACTS 16:31), which means trying to obey His commandment to love one another (MT 22:37-40, JN 13:35, RM 13:9)—forever (MT 10:22, PS 113:2).
5. Then God’s Holy Spirit will establish a saving relationship with those who freely accept Him (RV 3:20) that will eventually achieve heaven when by means of persevering in learning Truth/God’s Word/sanctification everyone cooperates fully with His will (JN 14:6, 17&26, RM 8:6-17, GL 6:7-9, EPH 1:13-14, HB 10:36, 12:1, JM 1:2-4).

Although perfection is not achieved in this life, the necessity of learning the didache in order to strive for perfection indicates the need for perseverance or to keep on learning and growing spiritually until we die physically (PHP 3:12-14). Thus, although learning any specific part of the didache is not GRFS, a person who does not “hunger and thirst for righteousness” (MT 5:6) or want to learn “every word that comes from the mouth of God” (MT 4:4) fails the self-examination Paul commanded and Jesus implied (mentioned previously).

If we truly believe in Jesus as Christ, the One who represents God the Father, then we will also accept Him as Lord (LK 2:11) or God the Son (MT 16:16) or God in the human dimension (CL 2:9). When we truly accept Jesus as Lord, we will want to please Him by doing His will (MT 7:21, EPH 5:8-10). Learning the manifold teachings or doctrines describing God’s moral will takes a lifetime. Thus, the need for perseverance/loyalty/remaining faithful, which is as easy or simple as an act of will. Remain faithful until the end.

Paul taught the importance of continuing to learn God’s Word (LGW) in 2TM 3:14-17, saying “Continue in what you have learned and have been convinced of, because you know those from whom you learned it, and how from infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures, which are able to make you wise for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus. All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work.”

Well, according to GWH, Jesus can to this very day still sin. So much for the Son's divinity. And so much for God's power to conquer sin and death. FWers will say anything to support their absurd notion of "freewill".

May I interject and ask you something? Rufus just accused you of saying:




You get too "wordy" sometimes, so I'm not sure what you believe on this topic. Will you please give me a succinct answer: Do you believe Jesus can sin?


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I believe the following TOP:

TOP #263: Jesus became human and shared their temptation and suffering so that his death could atone for the sins of humanity. [Heb. 2:14-18] Therefore Jesus is worthy of greater honor than Moses.

TOP #266: Jesus was tempted to sin, but he did not sin or was made perfect. [Heb. 4:15, 5:7-9, 7:26-28 & 10:14] Jesus learned submission or obedience to God the Father from what he suffered as God the Son, culminating in his crucifixion.

If God incarnate could sin, I see no reason to think that His moral freedom does not continue post-resurrection eternally.

I believe the following TOP:

TOP #263: Jesus became human and shared their temptation and suffering so that his death could atone for the sins of humanity. [Heb. 2:14-18] Therefore Jesus is worthy of greater honor than Moses.

TOP #266: Jesus was tempted to sin, but he did not sin or was made perfect. [Heb. 4:15, 5:7-9, 7:26-28 & 10:14] Jesus learned submission or obedience to God the Father from what he suffered as God the Son, culminating in his crucifixion.

If God incarnate could sin, I see no reason to think that His moral freedom does not continue post-resurrection eternally.

The way I understand God is that it is not in His NATURE to sin. So even though He has free will, He ALWAYS chooses not to sin.

So when Jesus comes back to collect all of us and we become like Him, we will still have free will, but since we will have His sinless nature being like Him and clothed in the imperishable, we will also start choosing not to sin.


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In my 11,753 I revealed what God's treasure is and the key to unlocking it, which unfortunately for FW lovers isn't man's "freewill". But there is more to this passage that is every bit as damaging to FWT. So, let's set the text before us so that we can all see it:

Isa 33:5-6
5 The LORD is exalted, for he dwells on high;
he will fill Zion with justice and righteousness.
6 He will be the sure foundation for your times,
a rich store of salvation and wisdom and knowledge;
the fear of the LORD is the key to this treasure.
NIV

In addition to what I wrote yesterday re this passage, there are at least three more highly important takeaways for us to learn. Here they are:

1. Only the LORD is credited with filling Zion with justice and righteousness. Once again, man's "sacred, inviolable freewill" is nowhere to be found in this text. Fallen man just can't garner any respect or credit from God, can he?

2. But even more than this, the text goes on to say that "He [the LORD] will be the sure foundation for your times". In other words, the Lord will not only unilaterally "fill Zion with justice and righteousness", under the New Covenant, but he will do so on an ongoing basis since "He will be sure foundation for your times". Very peculiar language if FWT were true! One would naturally think that it would be man's "freewill" choices that would comprise the "sure foundation" of God's salvation, since man, supposedly, always has the final say in things pertaining to his spiritual state and destiny.

3. Verse 6 goes on to tell us of what this "sure foundation" consists that is inextricably bound up in the Lord: "a rich store of salvation and wisdom and knowledge" -- in this precise logical order! While at first blush, this order might seem really odd and even counter-intuitive, it is most certainly neither of these things. We did learn from my previous post on this passage that the "Fear of the Lord" itself is the precursor to godly knowledge and wisdom. This gift of the "Fear of the Lord" (a godly disposition that is alien to unregenerate, God-hating, rebellious sinners' hearts, cf. Rom 3:18) produces spiritual wisdom and knowledge. And this makes the "Fear of the Lord" itself an inextricable part of the process or chain of God's great salvation, since a true knowledge of the Lord is the very essence of eternal life (Jn 17:3). Also, a true knowledge of the Lord "IS understanding" (Prov 9:10). But to get to the point where an unregenerate sinner truly understands the Gospel, God must first do the HEART work he promised in the New Covenant in Jer 32:39-41, i.e. sovereign, gracious placement of the Fear of Himself into depraved hearts > Godly Wisdom > Godly Knowledge > Spiritual Understanding > positive response to the Gospel. Herein is the process of salvation!

Several months ago when I broached this topic from a slightly different angle, I cited Cornelius in Acts 10 as the quintessential example of how God providentially brings his elect to true saving knowledge of Himself through Christ. While Cornelius was a God-fearing proselyte (which shows that God was already actively working in his life), nonetheless the centurion still didn't have saving knowledge of Christ. This is why God sent Peter to his home to give him that knowledge through the Gospel, which Cornelius gladly received since God had already prepared his heart by previously placing the Fear of Himself in it. The Cornelius narrative in Acts is a tremendous illustration of the truth of Prov 19:23 which states that "the Fear of the Lord leads to life"! And this is precisely what happened to Cornelius and all the other God-fearers in his household. Peter preached the Message of Life to all which their God-fearing hearts were prepared to receive. The Fear of the Lord is the only Good Soil in which the Gospel Truth can take root and bear fruit!

To sum up then...just as Life logically precedes Faith, so too does the Fountain of Life (Fear of the Lord, cf. Prov 14:27) precede saving knowledge, wisdom, understanding, faith and repentance. This makes FWT a thoroughly bankrupt and depraved human invention, since this insipid theology teaches that man's "freewill" is the precursor to godly wisdom, godly knowledge, spiritual understanding and life eternal..

Translate: Which means that the New Eternal Order will just be more of the same ol', same ol'. There will always be the potential for another Fall of mankind, since your version of Jesus was an epic Fail in his mission to finally conquer sin and death.

Well, God is Supernature, but although He is free to hate humanity, He has promised never to choose to do so,
and I choose to believe Him--forever.

And yes, because God took so much trouble creating siblings in Christ, in heaven we will share our Lord's love perfectly,
and there will be nothing to squabble about. :^)

Instead of judging the theology to be "insipid", you would do well to discern that it believes God created volition in order to give humanity the ability to be loving persons like Himself instead of mere animals or robots--and what God created was/is good.

Translate: Which means that the New Eternal Order will just be more of the same ol', same ol'. There will always be the potential for another Fall of mankind, since your version of Jesus was an epic Fail in his mission to finally conquer sin and death.

Moreover, your mindset betrays your total lack of understanding of Rom 8:18-25. After all, if the saints were truly liberated from their bondage of decay and brought into the "glorious freedom of the children of God", how could anyone truly be free to sin!? Instead, you seem to relish and fully embrace only one dimension to freedom -- freedom TO be able sin! You apparently care very little about the concept of freedom FROM the power of sin.

Chapter and verse, please, that contains this alleged promise.

Well...you say God is a loving person, yet he cannot choose to sin. So, why
can't His children at the end of the age be transformed to be just like he is?

And, no, I stand by my description of FWT: In fact, I restrained myself by limiting that filth
as only "insipid". You believe in a Jesus that has failed dismally in his mission to free his
people from sin and death. I would want nothing to do with your version of the Savior.

Mal.3:6, Jam.1:17, Num.23:19, 1Sam.15:29, 1John.4:7-12, Rom.5:8, Matt.5:44-48, Gal.5:22, Eph.3:17b-19, 5:1-2, 1Tim.2:3-4, etc.

None of the above say what you FALSELY claim. Just more wishful thinking on your part produced by your eisegesis of the above passages. This is what you boldly claimed:

"Well, God is Supernature, but although He is free to hate humanity, He has promised never to choose to do so,
and I choose to believe Him--forever."

Therefore, you're not believing Him since he never made such a promise. Who you truly are believing is the father of lies.

Scripture explicitly says we shall be as He is. Hmmm, I wonder why so many deny, ignore, and/or
outright contradict what is explicitly written? Same with claiming man is good. That is the exact
opposite of what the Bible proclaims of man from the fall onward. Who is blinding them to the truth?


Psalm 14 verses 1-3; Job 15:16 ~ The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt; their acts are vile. There is no one who does good. The LORD looks down from heaven upon the sons of men to see if any understand, if any seek God. All have turned away, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one. Man is vile and corrupt.