Unconditional love verses from God to us the people

Again, you are conflating love with your arbitrary selection of aspects of salvation, i.e. "forgiveness" OR "oneness". There is no secular or biblical definition of love that defines it as "forgiveness" or "oneness".

Tell me: Does God love all his free moral agents, including the angels?

I call it harmonizing, which means interpreting Scripture with Scripture, making a Scriptural tapestry, connecting Biblical dots,
adding layers of meaning, synthesizing, conflating, blending and testing as per 1Thes. 5:21.

Yes, God loves even you who is not so angelic!

So, God loves the Son conditionally because He needs forgiveness? And God loves sinners unconditionally because they're not in need of forgiveness?

Well, we have one verse that says God loves the Son conditionally,
but because the Son was sinless He did not need forgiveness.

We sinners DO need forgiveness, which is the condition for achieving oneness/sonship/salvation/election, etc.

So what precisely was the condition under which the Father loved the Son, since he didn't need forgiveness?

And now you're saying that God's love for sinners is conditional in nature because they need forgiveness? Equivocate much? Duplicitous much?

Just a technicality in language, but I don't see the Text talking about positionality (a theological term) in the sense of "have attained" which is Textual language that basically means have arrived in the sense of arriving at or reaching a destination or a goal. It's the word Paul uses here Phil3:11 in the process of proceeding beyond maturity Phil3:15 to the goal of resurrection Phil3:11.

Also, since you brought up the concept of "completeness" which is another way of translation the same word which is sometimes translated as "perfect" or "mature" it's important to note that there is a completion we reach in this life - a perfection/maturity - which Heb5-6 discusses as does Paul in the above Phil3 verses. In Paul's language it's like seeing 2 goals - 2 perfections/completions - maturity and then arriving at the resurrection.

Then, some note that it seems odd for Paul to be explaining that he hasn't yet arrived at the resurrection when he's still there writing and speaking, so the discussion is about a sense of arriving at a resurrection type life while here, which some tie to Jesus speaking about having Life and having it abundantly.

Whatever the interpretations others may desire to rest in, I prefer not to rest in too much discussion of "we can't be perfect" which in a sense is undefined worldly chatter and, in another sense, telling me to remain in a mindset that could be limiting what Christ died to accomplish in us while we draw breath here. IOW, I prefer to rest in Him continuing His work in me and not in what others read and think.

If we read the rest of Phil3 the context of "the enemies of the cross of Christ" Phil3:18 is this continual pursuit of the already establish goal - the upward call Phil3:14 - and the already & not yet - Paul is discussing. IOW, what Jesus accomplished on the cross is far more than I think most are contemplating (discussion with @Mem) let alone pursuing experientially as Paul did.

I thought the looking forward and looking back perspectives @Mem mentioned were intriguing. There is so much about our existence in Christ that is mindset. Much of 1John is discussing and establishing a mindset. Paul also instructs to create the same.

Maybe he (@GWH) works to harmonize the many paradoxes while others rest and haggle on one side vs. another. FWIW, I personally don't always agree with the conclusions, but I appreciate the work and the desire to arrive at the Truth.

NOW I am saying as I always have that God's love for sinners is UNconditional, but His forgiveness of sin IS conditional.

The only reason I am replying rather than refusing to play ping-pong is because I had not considered
or paid much attention to John 10:17 before, which does seem to be saying the Father's love for the Son
is conditional or because the Son is laying down his life.

I guess that logically we would have to say that the condition is potential,
because as a human Jesus had MFW or the ability either to die for sin or to sin
by praying for his will to trump the Father's (cf. Heb. 2:14-17, 4:15, 5:7-9 & Matt. 26:36-44).

Thanks studier. I want you to know that I posted this to PT: The complete results of my study of Romans 1-11 are posted in Lesson 10 (Controversial Issues) of our website <truthseekersfellowship.com> I trust you realize that the reason I was prompted to study Romans 1-11 was because you and studier thought that my attempts to harmonize TULIP with MFW Scripture was not working well--and I agreed.

Now I have begun a study of prayer that will not attempt impossible harmonization if you are interested to join us on the Hermeneutics thread.

Thank you for your thoughts on this. I wanted to make sure I expressed my appreciation for them although it has become evident that I'm hesitant to create many entries. Not believing in any coincidences, I'm developing paranoia that my contributions are what is causing the site failures as they seem to be as frequent, and I don't want to risk depriving anyone of a better experience here at cc and consequently depriving myself of the privilege of reading all of your thoughts as they develop.

The site failures are seemingly server and/or software issues, and the various manifestations seem indicative of work being done to resolve them. I also wonder how much money comes in to support the site and if some influx could help to resolve some of the issues.

Continue to post even though it gets cumbersome at times.

I have had the same thought, but if the issue were money, I guess the solution would be for them to say such
and publish a financial report. Then folks would know they need to dig deeper.

But the topic of this discussion is not soteriology but God's attributes, namely his love. Stick to the topic of the love attribute and quit trying to conflate his attributes with soteriology. After all, His love did not require him to save fallen angels, did it?

Since God loved Christ because He expected and received full faithfulness, love, obedience, fidelity and loyalty from Him at all times, then when you say that God loves all sinners unconditionally w/o exception, you are implying that God does not expect or desire or care if sinners ever manifest the above qualities, which would present some serious contradictions throughout scripture. Or to express this truth in slightly terms....

Since you deny that God loves sinners in the same way and for the same reasons found in the Last Adam, then you unwittingly dichotomize the Body of Christ! You destroy the UNITY or "oneness" (to borrow your recent term) of the Body of Christ. God loves the Head (Christ) for qualities found in Him; yet, He loves the Body (his Church) for no reason whatsoever that can be found in them! God himself is conflicted, and the mystical Body of Christ is also divided! God love is both "yes" and "no"; for he has two radically different kinds of love. YES, I love my Son because of all his qualities and at the same time...NO, I do not love His Body for any reason found in them.

Furthermore, since God loves all sinners w/o exception unconditionally, then this must mean that God does not care a whit how professing believers live their lives; for the reason for His love is never found within them. They can live any way they want and they are good to go. His love is all the cover for their sins that they need! And His unconditional love actually serves to dissuade professing Christians from emulating their Federal Head and cultivating the very qualities which comprise the reason behind God's love for his Son.

Yes, Positional Truth is a theological term because the concept is biblical! Are there any saints in heaven who have not been imputed with the Last Adam's perfect righteousness? Are there any unjustified saints in heaven?

Well you can choose to believe that convoluted theory, but I see no reason to convert from believing what I shared,
because God's love is the very reason for His soteriology (Rom 5:6-8, John 3:16, etc.).


HAND

At the same time, God would still be Love if he condemned all human beings along with the fallen angels. His love was not reason enough to save any of them!

If this were true, God wouldn’t love anyone, and He certainly wouldn’t have sent His only begotten Son to die for the World of sinners He loved.

But God's love isn't dependent on our obedience, because Paul wrote:

“But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” (Ro 5:8 NKJV)

God didn't wait until we reached out to Him before extending His love. In Ephesians we read:

“And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others.”

“But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, lest anyone should boast. For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.” (Eph 2:1-10 NKJV)

This is a very important question that needs a clear, unequivocal, biblical and coherent answer; for according to Lam 3:22, God's love never fails or ever ceases as some translations render the text. And Ps 136 tells us multiple times that God's love "endures forever". And Rom 8:38-39 tells us nothing in all creation can separate God's chosen people from his love that is "in Christ Jesus our Lord". These passages and others teach us that not only is God's love sacrificial in nature but is eternal. And it's this infinite nature of His love that demolishes the falsehood of "unconditional" love; for we saw yesterday in the "Understanding God's Election..." thread that at the end of this age on Judgment Day when the general resurrection occurs God will look upon the resurrected unjust with utter disdain/contempt/loathsomeness (depending on translation), as will His resurrected saints also do for all eternity (Dan 12:2; Isa 66:24). This fact presents no small problem for those who unwisely subscribe to the unconditional love theory.

First, unconditional love proponents will have to address the obvious contradiction between passages that teach that God's love is eternal and other passages, such as the last ones cited above that teach the temporary nature of God's love for the condemned -- if indeed God ever did love them! But let's assume for a moment that He did love them once. Then the question that is begging to be asked is: Why did God stop loving them? There must have been a reason or some condition that the condemned did not meet This is one way of looking at the problem. But the other way is to pose another question: Did God ever love the non-elect condemned who died in Adam in the first place? If God never did, then there is no contradiction whatsoever between Dan 12:2; Isa 66:24 and the earlier passages I cited.

Of course, this writer holds to the last position; for Jesus clearly and explicitly taught that God's love is conditional in nature (Jn 10:17; 14:21; 15:10; 16:27). But in addition to these, we also have Paul's teaching on God's love to wit:

Rom 8:39
39 neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
NIV

Note what the text doesn't say: It doesn't say "from the love of God that he has for the world". It also doesn't say "from the love of God"...period. No! Paul qualified God's love with the last phrase I bolded. This qualification limits the scope of God's love to only the saints! So, this indisputable fact is consistent with all that has been said, thus far, and supports my position of conditional love.

The second takeaway from this text is that we need to understand what kind of "love of God" did Jesus himself have within himself? Jn 14:21; 15:10 speak for themselves in this respect. Jesus loves His Father's elect the same exact way the Father does -- conditionally! And this makes perfectly good sense; for how could it be possible that there be division or disharmony or inconsistency within the Godhead!?

Finally, by extension and because all the saints are inextricably united to Christ by the indwelling Holy Spirit, then those "IN Christ Jesus" participate in the same kind of love that the Son shares with the Father.

Furthermore, we know God's love for his elect chosen people is eternal not only because God will never stop loving his people, but because He has always loved them from the "beginning", i.e. in eternity "past" -- long before time was created (Rom 8:29). God always [fore]KNEW his people personally, intimately and covenantally before time began. Therefore, it's only the chosen people of God who can truly say that "God's love endures forever"! Or God's love never fails! And this great truth diverges sharply from a text like Mat 7:23 wherein Jesus tells the evildoers on the last day to depart from Him because He never knew them! He was never in a covenant relationship with those evildoers because evildoers have zero love for God -- and God only loves those who love AND obey Him and his Son. Evildoers don't live lifestyles of obedience to God due to their lack of love for Him.

Dan 12:2; Isa 66:24 do irreparable damage to the man-made theory of "unconditional love". It places its advocates and supporters between a rock and hard place; for they must either deny that God's love is eternal in nature, which presents them with contradictions with other passages; or they must explain coherently why God will eternally separate Himself and his love from the condemned! What reason would He have or what moral/spiritual condition did the condemned fail to meet? (Hint: check out the four Johanine passages cited above for answers to either question).

Not so! The Father loves his Son precisely because He was always faithful and obedient to his Father (Jn 10:17). And for your further info, the Father and the Son love the elect on the same basis (Jn 14:21; 15:10; 16:27). And this last verse is especially interesting because faith is added to the reason for God's love.