Election by God Is According to His will, not man’s Will to believe

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brightfame52 said:
You started off with a diversion
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nope ... you're the one who claimed:
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brightfame52 said:
The whole point of the parable is to show Jesus mission to save sinners, not to give credit to the ones being saved.
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I merely clarified that your "whole point" statement was not the "whole point" ... notwithstanding your objection to the contrary.



Upon careful examination of the parables, we can see that Jesus was turning His listeners’ understanding of things upside down. The Pharisees saw themselves as being the beloved of God and the “sinners” as refuse. Jesus uses the Pharisees’ prejudices against them, while encouraging the sinners with one clear message. That message is this: God has a tender, personal concern (“and when he finds it, he puts it on his shoulders,” v. 5). God has a joyous love for individuals who are lost (in sin) and are found (repent). Jesus makes it clear that the Pharisees, who thought they were close to God, were actually distant and those sinners and tax collectors were the ones God was seeking after.​
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brightfame52 said:
False 2 Thess 2:13

13 ;But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:

Eph 1:4-5

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Note: To be holy and without blame are Salvation blessings attained by Jesus Christ work
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look at this: Eph 1:4-5 You have bought into the idea that chosen means eternal salvation, and yet it clearly says that we were chosen IN HIM, the only way to be IN CHRIST is to accept Christ as your Savior. After you accept Christ, you are baptized by the holy Spirit into the Body of Christ and we share his destiny based on the doctrine of Positional Truth. Christ is the Chosen One. Once we are in Christ, we share his election.

Upon accepting Christ, after that we are IN HIM. We share his sonship. IN CHRIST, God has already decided that anyone who accepts Christ will be adopted in to the royal family of God. Note this: God did not chose/elect us BEFORE we are in Him. Nobody is chosen to eternal salvation. The people were not planned to obtain eternal salvation, it is the Plan that was created before God created the human race.

You said, "Note: To be holy and without blame are Salvation blessings attained by Jesus Christ work."
This part is correct. These are blessings we are given by virtue of being IN HIM. God didn't decide who would be IN HIM and who would be OUT OF HIM. He created a plan called Election. One of these plans God chose was to settle the future for those who accept Christ, this is for a group of people. The nation of Israel and the Church were called the chosen nation/group of people yet all those in Israel were not saved. Here is a chosen nation but not all were saved. In fact, Judas Iscariot was called one of the chosen, yet he was not saved.

Do you feel like you have a thorough understanding of the doctrine of Positional Truth? If so, give me an example. Thank you for interacting with me in this discussion.
 
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EddieM said:
look at this: Eph 1:4-5 You have bought into the idea that chosen means eternal salvation, and yet it clearly says that we were chosen IN HIM, the only way to be IN CHRIST is to accept Christ as your Savior. After you accept Christ, you are baptized by the holy Spirit into the Body of Christ and we share his destiny based on the doctrine of Positional Truth. Christ is the Chosen One. Once we are in Christ, we share his election.

Upon accepting Christ, after that we are IN HIM. We share his sonship. IN CHRIST, God has already decided that anyone who accepts Christ will be adopted in to the royal family of God. Note this: God did not chose/elect us BEFORE we are in Him. Nobody is chosen to eternal salvation. The people were not planned to obtain eternal salvation, it is the Plan that was created before God created the human race.

You said, "Note: To be holy and without blame are Salvation blessings attained by Jesus Christ work."
This part is correct. These are blessings we are given by virtue of being IN HIM. God didn't decide who would be IN HIM and who would be OUT OF HIM. He created a plan called Election. One of these plans God chose was to settle the future for those who accept Christ, this is for a group of people. The nation of Israel and the Church were called the chosen nation/group of people yet all those in Israel were not saved. Here is a chosen nation but not all were saved. In fact, Judas Iscariot was called one of the chosen, yet he was not saved.

Do you feel like you have a thorough understanding of the doctrine of Positional Truth? If so, give me an example. Thank you for interacting with me in this discussion.
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Even if you believe the election to be positional, the election is of "us". This makes the election to be an election of people regardless of whatever else is included. This election or predestination is highlighted in Romans 8:29 where it says...whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate...It is the foreknowledge of individuals that led to the predestination.
 
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Cameron143 said:
Even if you believe the election to be positional, the election is of "us". This makes the election
to be an election of people regardless of whatever else is included. This election or predestination
is highlighted in Romans 8:29 where it says...whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate...
It is the foreknowledge of individuals that led to the predestination.
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Romans8-29-30-Ephesians1-5.png

Romans 8 v 29-30 + Ephesians 1 v 5
 
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Isaiah-Psalm-Psalm-Proverbs-Ephesians-Romans-Ephesians.png

The LORD of Hosts has sworn: “Surely, as I have planned, so will it be; as I have purposed, so will it stand.” Isaiah 14 verse 24 The counsel of the LORD stands forever, the purposes of His heart to all generations. Psalm 33 verse 11 Our God is in heaven; He does as He pleases. Psalm 115 verse 3 Many plans are in a man’s heart, but the purpose of the LORD will prevail. Proverbs 19 verse 21 In Him we were also chosen as God’s own, having been predestined according to the plan of Him who works out everything by the counsel of His will. Ephesians 1 verse 11 And we know that God works all things together for the good of those who love Him, who are called according to His purpose. For those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified. Romans 8 verses 28-30 For He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and blameless in His presence. In love He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will. Ephesians 1 verses 4-5
 
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EddieM said:
the only way to be IN CHRIST is to accept Christ as your Savior
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Nope. God, and God alone, places someone "in Christ". Man has no part to play in it:

[1Co 1:28-30 KJV]
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, [yea], and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
 
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EddieM said:
look at this: Eph 1:4-5 You have bought into the idea that chosen means eternal salvation,
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Holy and without blame means Salvation, those Chosen in Christ were chosen in Him to that end, And He brings it to past through His Justifying Righteousness imputed to them via His redemptive blood Eph 1:7
 
rogerg said:
Nope. God, and God alone, places someone "in Christ". Man has no part to play in it:

[1Co 1:28-30 KJV]
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, [yea], and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:
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I don't think you have done serious studies on Positional Truth. We are chosen only after we are IN Christ. We are not chosen OUT OF Christ. I don't see what your brief comments above relate to in Christ.
 
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EddieM said:
. We are chosen only after we are IN Christ.
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They were in Christ chosen before the foundation of the world Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love
 
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brightfame52 said:
They were in Christ chosen before the foundation of the world Eph 1:4

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love
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This is a reference to God's plan of election, that is why it is said to be US, the Body of Christ. The Plan that the Trinity created was called Positional Truth. Note that we were chosen for a reason. What is that reason? that we should be holy and without blame. This is part of the salvation package. Sanctification and Positional Truth explain both Predestination and Election. This is a corporate election that is related to all who join the group (of those IN CHRIST). Only those who accept Christ are in Christ. Election is a corporate election for a group. The nation of Israel was a chosen nation, but surely not all were saved. Christ said he chose the 12 Disciples and one of you is the devil. You see, Positional Truth is not to salvation but involves being chosen to a particular position in God's plan. That is why Judas was said to be elected, but he was not saved. It was the Plan of God that was made before the foundation of the world, not the individual.

Finally, remember Paul said that he was saved AFTER others that we in Christ before him.
Rom 16.7: Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.

If we were all chosen in Him BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, how could Paul say that they were in Christ before Paul was. If we were all chosen BEFORE the creation of the world, we were all saved at the same time.
 
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EddieM said:
I don't think you have done serious studies on Positional Truth. We are chosen only after we are IN Christ. We are not chosen OUT OF Christ. I don't see what your brief comments above relate to in Christ.
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You "think" wrong! The verse says, "OF HIM", not of "Of YOURSELF": it is only by God that someone is placed in Christ
 
EddieM said:
If we were all chosen in Him BEFORE THE FOUNDATION OF THE WORLD, how could Paul say that they were in Christ before Paul was. If we were all chosen BEFORE the creation of the world, we were all saved at the same time.
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Wrong. We wouldn't all be saved at the same time. Its execution is implemented according to earthly chronology at different times per the will of God. Paul could say that, because for him, it was implemented later than for others according to that earthly timeline. However, they all had been placed in Christ in eternity past by God according to His timeless eternal decree made before the foundation of the world.
 
EddieM said:
This is a reference to God's plan of election, that is why it is said to be US, the Body of Christ.
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Thats His Eternal Purpose of Election, He selected personally His Sons bride. Like He did with Rebecca for Isaac, Eve for Adam which is a type, figure. Was Adams Wife in him ? She was chosen in him for him. That was a Mystery peratining to the Church Eph 5:29-32

29 For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:

30 For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones.

31 For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

32 This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church.

So Christs Church is His Eve and she was chosen in Him before the foundation, when Adam was created, Eve was in Him but not yet manifested. Thats why when God created Adam it was still a them Male and Female Gen 5:1-2

This is the book of the generations of Adam. In the day that God created man, in the likeness of God made he him;

2 Male and female created he them; and blessed them, and called their name Adam, in the day when they were created.

You have to do away with Christ before the foundation if you do away His wife in Him before the foundation
 
EddieM said:
Finally, remember Paul said that he was saved AFTER others that we in Christ before him.
Rom 16.7: Greet Andronicus and Junia, my fellow Jews who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was.
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Thats a different phase of salvation which I probably wont spend time explaining to you since you already reject truth and are prejudiced against it.
 
EddieM said:
That is why Judas was said to be elected, but he was not saved.
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Where are we told that Judas was elected? Are you conflating election with being chosen for a specific purpose? Judas
was prophesied about. He fulfilled that prophesy of him = doomed to destruction. People will still claim he was saved,
even though Jesus made plain that Judas did not believe. Perhaps it is only plain to those with eyes to see.
 
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EddieM said:
I don't think you have done serious studies on Positional Truth. We are chosen only after we are IN Christ. We are not chosen OUT OF Christ. I don't see what your brief comments above relate to in Christ.
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They entire schema comes from their pastor and so they can see nothing else when they read scripture.
 
Magenta said:
Where are we told that Judas was elected? Are you conflating election with being chosen for a specific purpose? Judas
was prophesied about. He fulfilled that prophesy of him = doomed to destruction. People will still claim he was saved,
even though Jesus made plain that Judas did not believe. Perhaps it is only plain to those with eyes to see.
Click to expand...
Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” GJohn 6.70

Just a reminder, being chosen is not related to Salvation. Chosen is being elected to a privileged position. Even seeing this passage, I don't feel like you will revise your position on Election. All 12 disciples shared the same election.
 
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EddieM said:
Then Jesus replied, “Have I not chosen you, the Twelve? Yet one of you is a devil!” GJohn 6.70

Just a reminder, being chosen is not related to Salvation. Chosen is being elected to a privileged position. Even seeing this passage, I don't feel like you will revise your position on Election. All 12 disciples shared the same election.
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Agree, they did.
 
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