Does Hebrews 10 say if we willfully sin after being saved there is no more forgiveness?

GWH said:

Yes, and 15 other Scriptures indicate that the primary sin manifested by outward sins is repudiating saving faith in Jesus as Lord.

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Standing at the crossroad of unbelief and belief (still on the fence) after receiving the knowledge of the truth but then choosing to willfully sin/draw back to perdition instead of choosing to believe to the saving of the soul (Hebrews 10:39) does not mean they were saved and lost salvation.

These verses below should be discussed one at a time aside from carpet bombing. I will start out by briefly covering some of them. We can discuss them more in depth if you like.

GWH said:

Matt. 10:22, “All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.”

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Conditional confirmation of those who are saved.

GWH said:

Rom. 11:22, “Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.”

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Romans 11 is primarily discussing collective ecclesiology (the nature and composition of God's covenant people) rather than individual soteriology.

GWH said:

1Cor. 15:2, “By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.”

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To believe in vain is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose. The people who fail to hold fast to the word (the gospel) that Paul preached demonstrated that they "believed in vain" (did not truly believe in the first place).

GWH said:

Gal. 5:4, “You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.”

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The present tense of the word "justified" implies that these Galatians were contemplating justification by the law. They were getting sidetracked by legalistic teachers. "You who are trying to be justified by the law have fallen away from grace," but had they fully come to that place yet? Galatians 3:3 reads: Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? The middle voice implies "making yourselves perfect" by means of self-effort. The present tense indicates that the action is in progress and that there is still time to correct the error.

GWH said:

Col. 1:22-23, “But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation—if you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel.”

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I see the "if" here serving as a conditional confirmation. Continuing in the faith is evidence that one's reconciliation was genuine from the start. Failing to continue demonstrates otherwise. Those who continue in the faith confirm they are genuine believers. But those who do not continue show that their shallow, spurious belief was not firmly grounded and established in the gospel to begin with. Just like in 1 Corinthians 15:1-2, believed in vain.

It makes sense that Paul would speak this way because he is addressing groups of people who all "profess" to be Christians without being able to infallibly know the actual state of every person's heart. How can Paul avoid giving them false assurance of salvation here when in fact some of them may not be saved?

HeIsHere said:

Okay well I guess one can speculate.
In my opinion, I clearly read a very different writing style, different manner of expression and things explained differently.

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I understand your reply to mean that you do not find anything so different that Paul could not have utilized different amanuenses to write both.

IOM, it makes perfect sense that because Paul's reputation was "apostle to the Gentiles" that he would write anonymously and differently to Jews (not mentioning in Heb. 2:3-4 his Damascus Road revelation), although the comments in Heb. 13:18-24 sound like Paul. Also, the doctrine espoused in Hebrews seems quite Pauline to me. The article about authorship in the NIV says the earliest reference is by Tertullian, who associated Barnabas with Hebrews, but Barnabas was Paul's assistant and could have written what Paul taught him. Ditto re Apollos (1Cor. 1:12, 3:4-6, 22).

mailmandan said:

Standing at the crossroad of unbelief and belief (still on the fence) after receiving the knowledge of the truth but then choosing to willfully sin/draw back to perdition instead of choosing to believe to the saving of the soul (Hebrews 10:39) does not mean they were saved and lost salvation.

These verses below should be discussed one at a time aside from carpet bombing. I will start out by briefly covering some of them. We can discuss them more in depth if you like.

Conditional confirmation of those who are saved.

Romans 11 is primarily discussing collective ecclesiology (the nature and composition of God's covenant people) rather than individual soteriology.

To believe in vain is to believe without cause or without effect, to no purpose. The people who fail to hold fast to the word (the gospel) that Paul preached demonstrated that they "believed in vain" (did not truly believe in the first place).

The present tense of the word "justified" implies that these Galatians were contemplating justification by the law. They were getting sidetracked by legalistic teachers. "You who are trying to be justified by the law have fallen away from grace," but had they fully come to that place yet? Galatians 3:3 reads: Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? The middle voice implies "making yourselves perfect" by means of self-effort. The present tense indicates that the action is in progress and that there is still time to correct the error.

I see the "if" here serving as a conditional confirmation. Continuing in the faith is evidence that one's reconciliation was genuine from the start. Failing to continue demonstrates otherwise. Those who continue in the faith confirm they are genuine believers. But those who do not continue show that their shallow, spurious belief was not firmly grounded and established in the gospel to begin with. Just like in 1 Corinthians 15:1-2, believed in vain.

It makes sense that Paul would speak this way because he is addressing groups of people who all "profess" to be Christians without being able to infallibly know the actual state of every person's heart. How can Paul avoid giving them false assurance of salvation here when in fact some of them may not be saved?

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Twist yourself into a pretzel if you want, but GW does not need to goad me more to amend my previous belief (that it is impossible for Christians to commit apostasy) to agree with the plain meaning in these verses, both individually and as a theme.

GWH said:

Twist yourself into a pretzel if you want, but GW does not need to goad me more to amend my previous belief (that it is impossible for Christians to commit apostasy) to agree with the plain meaning in these verses, both individually and as a theme.

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No twisting. No pretzel. It's called interpreting scripture in context and properly harmonizing scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine.

GWH said:

I understand your reply to mean that you do not find anything so different that Paul could not have utilized different amanuenses to write both.

IOM, it makes perfect sense that because Paul's reputation was "apostle to the Gentiles" that he would write anonymously and differently to Jews (not mentioning in Heb. 2:3-4 his Damascus Road revelation), although the comments in Heb. 13:18-24 sound like Paul. Also, the doctrine espoused in Hebrews seems quite Pauline to me. The article about authorship in the NIV says the earliest reference is by Tertullian, who associated Barnabas with Hebrews, but Barnabas was Paul's assistant and could have written what Paul taught him. Ditto re Apollos (1Cor. 1:12, 3:4-6, 22).

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I see no reason for Paul to be deceptive, if used secretaries it was often because of health issues.

Scholars sit on both sides of this, I will go with the scholars who say that the Greek is far more refined, the style of writing is markedly different along with the vocabulary.

The amanuensis hypothesis is just that an hypothesis.

GWH said:

Twist yourself into a pretzel if you want, but GW does not need to goad me more to amend my previous belief (that it is impossible for Christians to commit apostasy) to agree with the plain meaning in these verses, both individually and as a theme.

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Yes the writer was clearly concerned about apostasy that is obvious......but you are also making apostasy as equating to a person no longer being justified so that is your error.

mailmandan said:

No twisting. No pretzel. It's called interpreting scripture in context and properly harmonizing scripture with scripture before reaching my conclusion on doctrine.

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Considering context and harmonizing is good but unnecessary and becomes overthinking when the plain meaning is clear and does not contradict other plain NT teaching.

It is TULIP that contradicts the NT Gospel and needs to consider context, specifically Scriptures teaching that God loves and wants to save everyone, so He does not favor only a few. SPUR

I assume you know the prooftexts tulipists cite to support their heresy, so would you like to discuss those?
If you want a head start, please read the Interpreting Problematic Interpretations thread.
We can discuss them either there or here.

GWH said:

Considering context and harmonizing is good but unnecessary and becomes overthinking when the plain meaning is clear and does not contradict other plain NT teaching.

It is TULIP that contradicts the NT Gospel and needs to consider context, specifically Scriptures teaching that God loves and wants to save everyone, so He does not favor only a few. SPUR

I assume you know the prooftexts tulipists cite to support their heresy, so would you like to discuss those?
If you want a head start, please read the Interpreting Problematic Interpretations thread.
We can discuss them either there or here.

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I'm not a Calvinist.

You have to read the verses in context. These dudes were basically saying “ yup, Jesus is great, but we still need to sacrifice bulls and goats to atone for our sin” Thus trampling on the Blood of Christ and His Sacrifice.

Here’s a pretty good little message on the whole issue.

There is no sacrifice for someone who is willfully sinning, the language is crystal clear. I think it's important to remember the parable of the Prodigal Son though. I think someone can sin willfully and repent from this and be forgiven. All that being said though, John writes that the believer does not sin, meaning that the believer does not continue in this type of sin (willful, deliberate sin), so if someone is deliberately sinning, they are not a true believer in Christ. Someone who is a believer in Christ is given the Holy Spirit, which causes us to walk correctly. We are also renewed by the Holy Spirit.

As for what Paul wrote, the struggle with sin is still real. Ever been asked for money and said no, and then had to repent and lend the money because Jesus says to give to those who ask? Yeah, you were unable to do the good you wanted (all time times you knew it was right to lend money) and instead did the evil, but you repented and did what was right. Paul says "For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do." - exactly, at first you were unwilling because your flesh was unable to part with the money, but you didn't persist in this and did the right thing in the end. You didn't deliberately not lend the money against Jesus' words, you had a momentary lapse with sin and continued on.

mailmandan said:

I'm not a Calvinist.

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My question would be, which parts of TULIP do you believe and what is your Scriptural support?

Total Depravity - I do not believe that regeneration comes before faith or that we are so far gone that we cannot choose to receive the gift of eternal life through faith by the grace of God once drawn and enabled by God. John 6:44 - No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.....65 - He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.” The approach of the soul to Christ is initiated by the Father, but He doesn't force us to choose to believe in Christ, we must choose to believe in Him.

Unconditional Election - I see election based on God's foreknowledge and not fatalistic determination.  Romans 8:29 - For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Limited Atonement - I believe that Jesus paid for all sins and not merely the sins of the elect. 1 John 2:2 - And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Irresistible Grace - I believe that grace can be resisted and that God does not drag people into heaven violating their free will. God graciously initiates salvation and convicts the heart, but He invites human cooperation rather than overriding free will. Titus 2:11 -For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. This highlights that God's grace is universally extended but not everyone will receive it.

Perseverance of the Saints - I don't see perseverance as fatalistic and forced against human will. I believe that when we are born again, we are new creations in Christ, and our desire is to persevere, and the Lord does not forsake His saints, they are preserved forever. (Psalm 37:28)

mailmandan said:

Total Depravity - I do not believe that regeneration comes before faith or that we are so far gone that we cannot choose to receive the gift of eternal life through faith by the grace of God once drawn and enabled by God. John 6:44 - No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.....65 - He went on to say, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled them.” The approach of the soul to Christ is initiated by the Father, but He doesn't force us to choose to believe in Christ, we must choose to believe in Him.

Unconditional Election - I see election based on God's foreknowledge and not fatalistic determination.  Romans 8:29 - For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30 Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

Limited Atonement - I believe that Jesus paid for all sins and not merely the sins of the elect. 1 John 2:2 - And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

Irresistible Grace - I believe that grace can be resisted and that God does not drag people into heaven violating their free will. God graciously initiates salvation and convicts the heart, but He invites human cooperation rather than overriding free will. Titus 2:11 -For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people. This highlights that God's grace is universally extended but not everyone will receive it.

Perseverance of the Saints - I don't see perseverance as fatalistic and forced against human will. I believe that when we are born again, we are new creations in Christ, and our desire is to persevere, and the Lord does not forsake His saints, they are preserved forever. (Psalm 37:28)

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T - I agree that God initiates; sinners are enabled by God-given MFW to choose to cooperate/believe--or not.

U - I agree that God foreknew who would choose to satisfy His condition for salvation: faith.

L - I agree Christ atoned for humanity's sins.

I - I agree that grace can be rejected or ignored.

P - I believe perseverance, like initial faith, is also freely willed.

We seem to disagree only re the P per your post #83.
As a Baptist I also used to believe only OSAS until I learned the Scriptures I posted.
Why do they not suffice to convince you otherwise as well?

GWH said:

T - I agree that God initiates; sinners are enabled by God-given MFW to choose to cooperate/believe--or not.

U - I agree that God foreknew who would choose to satisfy His condition for salvation: faith.

L - I agree Christ atoned for humanity's sins.

I - I agree that grace can be rejected or ignored.

P - I believe perseverance, like initial faith, is also freely willed.

We seem to disagree only re the P per your post #83.
As a Baptist I also used to believe only OSAS until I learned the Scriptures I posted.
Why do they not suffice to convince you otherwise as well?

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Prior to my conversion while still attending the Roman Catholic church several years ago, I believed in NOSAS, had no assurance of salvation and waa absolutely miserable! Once I came to learn the Scriptures, I discovered that those Scriptures you posted "on the surface" only appear to teach what you believe, they teach. I have found that all false religions and cults which promote salvation by works strongly oppose OSAS which remains a major red flag for me.

This what you said

Mem said:

It says, "There is no more sacrifice..." because Jesus' sacrifice saves to the utmost. And "the utmost" certainly is relevant in regard to the measure of the degree in available forgiveness.

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That instigated this response, "The sacrifice is so much more than forgiveness in which you are using. It (the forgiveness) is the gateway into the new Life.

Chapter 10 also says, We whom He sanctified he has perfected. Whereof this perfectness the Holy Ghost witnesses to us when God has said. I will put my Law into their hearts and in their minds I will write them. Behold old things have passed away and we have become new and our lives are unto God. The old man has passed away. We are dead but alive. Yet not us but Christ lives in us. And the life we now live in the flesh we live by the faith of the son of God who gave himself for us. We are a new creation in Christ Jesus begotten by the word of truth. The word is in our heart and in our mouth that we do it, that is the word of Faith in which we are to preach. For with the heart man believes into righteousness. And assenting is made unto the soul."

Mem said:

Either Jesus is your perfection or you are fall short of it, way short.

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That does not show error in the response to you.

Mem said:

I believe the scripture as written without adding such things as you would suggest I should read it as, "For with the heart man believes (he must work) into righteousness. And assenting (to work into righteousness) is made unto the soul."

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What was added? And where did you get that from this,
"The word is in our heart and in our mouth that we do it, that is the word of Faith in which we are to preach. For with the heart man believes into righteousness. And assenting is made unto the soul."

Mem said:

I showed your error. So, take that ounce of correction and add it to your quart of whitewash paint.

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You showed nothing. It was said,
"The sacrifice is so much more than forgiveness in which you are using. It (the forgiveness) is the gateway into the new Life.

Chapter 10 also says, We whom He sanctified (through His Sacrifice) he has perfected. Whereof this perfectness the Holy Ghost witnesses to us when God has said. I will put my Law into their hearts and in their minds I will write them."

Where is the error? Where did you show the error in your responses to me?

You haven't, let's continue.

It was said in context to God through Christ sanctifying us through His blood and perfecting us by putting His Law in our hearts and minds.


"Behold old things have passed away and we have become new and our lives are unto God."

That as you probably know was taken from 2 Cor 5:17.

Where is the error there? Where have you spoken anything in response to that in your posts above?


And once again, it was said, "The old man has passed away. We are dead but alive. Yet not us but Christ lives in us. And the life we now live in the flesh we live by the faith of the son of God who gave himself for us. We are a new creation in Christ Jesus begotten by the word of truth."

Where is the error? None of that which you posted above addresses this? Or anything really.

The word is in our heart and in our mouth that we do it, that is the word of Faith in which we are to preach. For with the heart man believes into righteousness. And assenting is made unto the soul.

Inquisitor said:

If we don't read the letter to the Hebrews in the context then, we will misunderstand this letter to the Hebrews.

Strictly speaking, the Hebrews were under the law of Moses and were receiving intense persecution and losing
sight of Jesus.

The author of Hebrews draws a direct comparison to the Mosaic Law in Numbers 15:30, where a sin committed
defiantly had no sacrifice to cover it. The text states that the penalty was death. Similarly, rejecting Christ's sacrifice
means there is no other sacrifice available to take away sins. Rejecting the only sacrifice, the text states;
"there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins".

This is not because God refuses to forgive, but because the person has consciously rejected the only valid sacrifice,
the blood of Jesus.

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No it is because they continued wilfulling sinning after receiving the knowledhe of the truth.

The knowledge that Jesus blood cleanses our Conscience, who we are from dead works, sin. Acts that cause death, so we can serve the living God. For the blood of bulls and goats could never take away sin. But He in these last days by the sacrifice of Himself have put away sin once and for all. For all that is for the ministry must be sanctified (set apart for holy use) by His Blood. And we whom He has sanctified He also perfected. Whereof this perfectness the Holy Ghost speaks when He saith, God will put His law in our hearts and in our minds.
Having our hearts sprinkled from that evil conscience and our bodies washed by the pure water let us hold fast this profession of Faith without wavering. For He is faithful that promised. Let us not forsake the assembling of ourselves as is the manner of some but exhort one another daily as we see the day approaching. For if we continue sinning willfully after we have received the knowledge of this truth there remains no more sacrifice for sin, Only judgment and the fiery indignation of our God.

Qt said:

This what you said


That instigated this response, "The sacrifice is so much more than forgiveness in which you are using. It (the forgiveness) is the gateway into the new Life.

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forgiveness is the gateway into the new life, your note, don't forget that

Qt said:

Chapter 10 also says, We whom He sanctified he has perfected. Whereof this perfectness the Holy Ghost witnesses to us when God has said. I will put my Law into their hearts and in their minds I will write them.

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Christ's law says we are forgiven by the faith in the son of God who gave himself for us, and we abide in that (the law) if we are faithful to His law.

Qt said:

Behold old things have passed away and we have become new and our lives are unto God. The old man has passed away. We are dead but alive. Yet not us but Christ lives in us. And the life we now live in the flesh we live by the faith of the son of God who gave himself for us.

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see reply above, which references your note here except for the editing of "in" for "of," perhaps you see faith of the son to give himself, but I see faith in the son to now live... Are you dead while still alive? Well, so are unbelievers. Isn't Christ the only reason you live at all? Isn't His life the (only) Way and the Life?

Qt said:

We are a new creation in Christ Jesus begotten by the word of truth. The word is in our heart and in our mouth that we do it, that is the word of Faith in which we are to preach. For with the heart man believes into righteousness. And assenting is made unto the soul."

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see again reply above. have you forgotten it already? Because of the forgiveness that you abide (live) in lies in that we are forgiven Christ gave Himself for by faith in the Son of God who gave Himself for us

Qt said:

That does not show error in the response to you.

What was added? And where did you get that from this,
"The word is in our heart and in our mouth that we do it, that is the word of Faith in which we are to preach. For with the heart man believes into righteousness. And assenting is made unto the soul."

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You noted, yourself, the answer in the previously quoted,

Qt said:

We are a new creation in Christ Jesus begotten by the word of truth. The word is in our heart and in our mouth that we do it, that is the word of Faith in which we are to preach. For with the heart man believes into righteousness. And assenting is made unto the soul."

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But I'm confident that, surely, you'll paint over it so as to divert from the law of Christ and point the way back to the law of Moses.

Qt said:

You showed nothing. It was said,
"The sacrifice is so much more than forgiveness in which you are using. It (the forgiveness) is the gateway into the new Life.

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Forgiveness is the new life, as we live in it. Again, without what is there no forgiveness?

Qt said:

Chapter 10 also says, We whom He sanctified (through His Sacrifice) he has perfected. Whereof this perfectness the Holy Ghost witnesses to us when God has said. I will put my Law into their hearts and in their minds I will write them."

Where is the error? Where did you show the error in your responses to me?

You haven't, let's continue.

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And you'll continue to paint over it.

Qt said:

It was said in context to God through Christ sanctifying us through His blood and perfecting us by putting His Law in our hearts and minds.


"Behold old things have passed away and we have become new and our lives are unto God."

That as you probably know was taken from 2 Cor 5:17.

Where is the error there? Where have you spoken anything in response to that in your posts above?

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There it is, you've painted over 2 Cor 5:17 as much as the context of regard, in the preceding post, and reconciliation, in the following verse.

Qt said:

And once again, it was said, "The old man has passed away. We are dead but alive. Yet not us but Christ lives in us. And the life we now live in the flesh we live by the faith of the son of God who gave himself for us. We are a new creation in Christ Jesus begotten by the word of truth."

Where is the error? None of that which you posted above addresses this? Or anything really.

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If you are as flippant about painting over scripture, I don't expect much more with regard to my posts.

Qt said:

The word is in our heart and in our mouth that we do it, that is the word of Faith in which we are to preach. For with the heart man believes into righteousness. And assenting is made unto the soul.

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You keep painting over your error so you can read it through the veil. Turn to Christ and it will be removed.

GWH said:

Considering context and harmonizing is good but unnecessary and becomes overthinking when the plain meaning is clear and does not contradict other plain NT teaching.

It is TULIP that contradicts the NT Gospel and needs to consider context, specifically Scriptures teaching that God loves and wants to save everyone, so He does not favor only a few. SPUR

I assume you know the prooftexts tulipists cite to support their heresy, so would you like to discuss those?
If you want a head start, please read the Interpreting Problematic Interpretations thread.
We can discuss them either there or here.

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"Plane meaning" is overrated. When people talk about the plain meaning of a text, they usually mean the "familiar" meaning of a text. The only thing that matters is whether it is the correct meaning or not.

mailmandan said:

Prior to my conversion while still attending the Roman Catholic church several years ago, I believed in NOSAS, had no assurance of salvation and waa absolutely miserable! Once I came to learn the Scriptures, I discovered that those Scriptures you posted "on the surface" only appear to teach what you believe, they teach. I have found that all false religions and cults which promote salvation by works strongly oppose OSAS which remains a major red flag for me.

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Well, I believe what the verses say and find your reason for denying them to be illogical.
If God were going to remove faith/MFW at the end of the salvation process and history,
He would have done so from the beginning, saving everyone and eliminating misery.