... when red herring doesn't work, just ask a loaded question ... anything but have meaningful dialogue concerning the topic at hand ... smh ....
The book of Job
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... when red herring doesn't work, just ask a loaded question ... anything but have meaningful dialogue concerning the topic at hand ... smh ....
reneweddaybyday said:
David Lamb pointed out that Elihu made that claim about himself and commented that "We have nothing to say that God had appointed Elihu to stand in His place".
Your reply to David Lamb was "God devoted 6 chapters to Elihu. Do you believe God is the author of confusion?"
... which is completely off-topic. Rather than admit that Elihu said those words about himself and there is no verse wherein God stated He appointed Elihu to stand in His place, you divert to nonsensical blather about how many chapters were "devoted" to Elihu ... and the only reason there are six chapters is because it took Elihu six chapters to say what he could have said in three. And don't get me wrong, Elihu spoke some truth in his discussion, but Elihu also spoke error because his whole premise was faulty in that he believed God was punishing Job for some sort of sin on Job's part ... when you know darn good and well that satan smote Job for no other reason than Job was a believer who reverenced God and was an upright man who turned aside from evil.
You continuously divert discussions to non-issues. This is an avoidance tactic by you and you have shown yourself to be disinterested in having a meaningful discussion concerning the Book of Job.
You submit verses which I and others have painstakingly gone through to explain to you the meaning of the verses. Your response to the explanation is to ignore what has been presented and move on to another topic that has nothing to do with the current topic under discussion ... only to return to the topic several days later.
Why are you posting anything in this thread if you're not interested?
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you do know that chapters were added by men, yes?
You submitted Job 33:6 Behold, I am according to thy wish in God's stead: I also am formed out of the clay.
David Lamb pointed out that Elihu made that claim about himself and commented that "We have nothing to say that God had appointed Elihu to stand in His place".
Your reply to David Lamb was "God devoted 6 chapters to Elihu. Do you believe God is the author of confusion?"
... which is completely off-topic. Rather than admit that Elihu said those words about himself and there is no verse wherein God stated He appointed Elihu to stand in His place, you divert to nonsensical blather about how many chapters were "devoted" to Elihu ... and the only reason there are six chapters is because it took Elihu six chapters to say what he could have said in three. And don't get me wrong, Elihu spoke some truth in his discussion, but Elihu also spoke error because his whole premise was faulty in that he believed God was punishing Job for some sort of sin on Job's part ... when you know darn good and well that satan smote Job for no other reason than Job was a believer who reverenced God and was an upright man who turned aside from evil.
You continuously divert discussions to non-issues. This is an avoidance tactic by you and you have shown yourself to be disinterested in having a meaningful discussion concerning the Book of Job.
You submit verses which I and others have painstakingly gone through to explain to you the meaning of the verses. Your response to the explanation is to ignore what has been presented and move on to another topic that has nothing to do with the current topic under discussion ... only to return to the topic several days later.
Why are you posting anything in this thread if you're not interested?
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you're not interested in providing any response to explanations presented to you when your incessant regurgitating of verses is responded to (and which verses have already been explained to you).
Rather than provide any cohesive rebuttal to the explanations provided, you ignore the information or you divert to matters not at issue ... you then re-post the same verses which have already been explained only to ignore/divert over and over ad nauseam.
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What I meant was that nobody suggested that the contents of whole chapters of the Bible have been added by men, just the division of the Bible into chapters and verses.
Job 29:7-10 When I went out to the gate through the city, when I prepared my seat in the street! The young men saw me, and hid themselves: and the aged arose, and stood up. The princes refrained talking, and laid their hand on their mouth. The nobles held their peace, and their tongue cleaved to the roof of their mouth.
Can you see this picture of Job. The general public hiding in fear at his presence. The leaders were afraid to speak. Even the nobles were afraid to say a word out of order.
This would be comparable to one of Hitler’s meetings, certainly unlike Christ. What kind of person is it that everybody is afraid of. Hitler acted as if he was a god. Consider the next words from Job.--- Job 29:11 When the ear heard me, then it blessed me; and when the eye saw me, it gave witness to me: If this isn’t pride bubbling out, what is it?
Why are so many blind to the true picture, portrayed in scripture, of Job?
Can you see this picture of Job. The general public hiding in fear at his presence. The leaders were afraid to speak. Even the nobles were afraid to say a word out of order.
This would be comparable to one of Hitler’s meetings, certainly unlike Christ. What kind of person is it that everybody is afraid of. Hitler acted as if he was a god. Consider the next words from Job.--- Job 29:11 When the ear heard me, then it blessed me; and when the eye saw me, it gave witness to me: If this isn’t pride bubbling out, what is it?
Why are so many blind to the true picture, portrayed in scripture, of Job?
Would it be more suitable if I said Elihu had 14.7% of the book of Job versus 14.2% for God. Elihu actually spoke more than God spoke in the book of Job. God had no reason to comment on Elihu as Elihu was speaking for God. Job could no more answer Elihu than he could God.
But you still haven't told us where you find God saying that Elihu was His spokesman. We only have Elihu himself claiming it.
Do you believe God is the author of the whole bible? Perhaps you don't believe the words of Elihu belong in the bible? Perhaps you don't believe the bible is inspired by God?
Job asked for a mediator that would not make him afraid, and this is the reason Elihu was young. Job asked twice.
Job asks for two things from God, and then he will answer. The two requests are made in chapter 9 & 13. Job 9:32 For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment. Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both. Let him take his rod away from me, and let not his fear terrify me: Then would I speak, and not fear him; but it is not so with me.
Chapter 13. Job 13:20 Only do not two things unto me: then will I not hide myself from thee. Withdraw thine hand far from me: and let not thy dread make me afraid. Then call thou, and I will answer: or let me speak, and answer thou me.
Then we hear Elihu's response.--Job 33:6 Behold, I am according to thy wish in God's stead: I also am formed out of the clay. Behold, my terror shall not make thee afraid, neither shall my hand be heavy upon thee. Job 33:5 If thou canst answer me, set thy words in order before me, stand up.
It is easy to understand that Elihu is God's response to Job's request.
Yes I do. But in the Bible we read words of false prophets ("Baal, we cry to thee! Hear and answer us!" for example), lies, like those told concerning the Promised Land by the ten spies, and much more. It is true that such things were said, but the fact that God's word records them as having been said doesn't make those words right or true. Baal was a false god, totally unable to hear or answer. The report of the ten spies was a false one, because it left God out of the equation. So just because Elihu's words are recorded in God's word, that doesn't prove that they are true words, just that the fact that he said them is true.
The word "mediator" occurs twice in the book of Job, but in neither case does it make any mention of Elihu being a mediator.
Not unless God confirms it. Otherwise, it is just a case of Elihu claiming that he is God's spokesman.
With your line of reasoning we could eliminate everything in the bible that is not prefixed with "God Said."
Can you name a lie in the bible where it is not asserted to be a lie, or directly associated with a known liar?
When Job said he "went out to the gate through the city" ... this means Job sat in the gate of the city. The gate of the city was a place where leaders of the community sat and heard matters and made decisions ... resolved local issues.
In the book of Ruth, Boaz went to the gate of the city to redeem Ruth for his wife (Ruth 4:1-12).
Job sat in the gate of his city and was well respected.
When the "young men saw me, and hid themselves", they did not hide in fear as you claim. The words "and hid themselves" are translated from the Hebrew word ḥāḇā' which means to withdraw, hide oneself, draw back. The young men stepped aside out of respect for Job ... not because they were afraid as you claim.
The same word ḥāḇā' is used in Job 29:10 when the "nobles held their peace". The word "held" in vs 10 is translated from the same Hebrew word (ḥāḇā') ... the nobles were silent as they listened to Job because Job gave sound reasoning ... not because they were afraid as you claim.
According to Gesenius' Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon, the meaning is that they gave place to Job out of respect and modesty.
when you keep reading you see why people had such respect ... not fear as you claim ... for Job:
Job 29:12-17
12 Because I delivered the poor that cried, and the fatherless, and him that had none to help him.
13 The blessing of him that was ready to perish came upon me: and I caused the widow's heart to sing for joy.
14 I put on righteousness, and it clothed me: my judgment was as a robe and a diadem.
15 I was eyes to the blind, and feet was I to the lame.
16 I was a father to the poor: and the cause which I knew not I searched out.
17 And I brake the jaws of the wicked, and plucked the spoil out of his teeth.
Because Job "delivered the poor that cried, and the fatherless, and him that had none to help him" ... because Job "caused the widow's heart to sing for joy" ... because Job "was eyes to the blind, and feet was I to the lame" ... because Job was "was a father to the poor" ... because when Job did not know the cause of a problem he "searched out" ... because Job broke "the jaws of the wicked, and plucked the spoil out of his teeth" (i.e. he restored what had been taken by the wicked).
Your comparison of Job to Hitler is an abysmal failure on your part ... praying you'll see the truth concerning Job, but you are so hellbent on condemning Job I'm not sure you will.
As far as this thread is concerning, I see only one who is "blind to the true picture, portrayed in scripture, of Job" ... even after "so many" have explained the meaning of the text.
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More diversion on your part. Rather than meaningful discussion, you divert to nonsensical rhetoric.
And as far as what "God Said" ... you have definitely eliminated what "God Said" about Job (Job 1:1; Job 1:8; Job 2:3).
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Does Job 1:1, 1:8, and 2:3 mean Job has salvation? Is this question nonsensical and rhetoric?
God never confirmed that Elihu was "speaking for God". While Elihu spoke some truth ... as did all the others (Job included) ... Elihu also spoke error because his premise was founded on the faulty surmising that Job was being punished for some sort of hidden sin on the part of Job. You know that is incorrect because God tells you in Job 2:7 that satan was behind Job's suffering ... and for no other reason than that Job was upright, reverenced God, and turned aside from evil.
Job did not respond to Elihu because Job's prayer was finally answered ... God spoke to Job ... "Then the LORD answered Job ...".
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Job lied when he said his heart would not reproach him so long as he lived. The evidence is at the end when Job said he was vile and abhorred himself. (Job 27:6) (Job 40:4, Job 42:6)
God made it possible for Satan to attack Job. God even took responsibility for the attack. Job 2:3 ---- although thou movedst me against him---
Job was given the opportunity to respond, and he didn't. Job 33:5 If thou canst answer me, set thy words in order before me, stand up.
Job had no problem answering his three friends.
not according to you.
The question is not nonsensical. What is nonsensical is that the question has been answered by myself and others who have posted in this thread ... yet you continue to ask ... smh ...
Rather than believe the very Word of God concerning Job, as well as believing what other believers have told you, you still do not believe Job was a believer. What's up with that?
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Job did not lie. Job's conscience was clear in that he had not sinned as his friends continued to insist.
Job's relationship with God was such that if and when he fell short, he would repent and make offering to God.
We do the same in our day and time, although we do not make sacrifices to God because we rely on the sacrifice of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ as our sufficiency.
However, if and when we fall short, God tells us we are to "confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness" (1 John 1:9). We know when we fall short. We then do as God has instructed and fellowship is restored.
Job did the same in his day and time ... although back then, an offering was made.
As far as Job 40:4 and Job 42:6, Job acknowledged he had spoken of things he "understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not".
Job's attitude was absolutely correct and appropriate. Anyone who has approached near to God knows how absolutely holy God is and how wholly unworthy we are ... yet God still loves us and welcomes us close.
nope ... God stayed the hand of satan.
sigh ... I went through the meaning of the words "although thou movedst me against him" a few days ago when you brought this verse up:
Did God follow through on satan's request that God "put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath" (Job 1:11)???
My bible says God's response to satan was "all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand" (Job 1:12).
God's response to satan was to not move against Job. Instead because God knew satan would move against Job, He stayed satan from outright touching Job.
You never replied ... you just ignored altogether as you normally do ... and now you're bringing up the same issue as you normally do ... again and again and again.
Instead of ignoring, respond to the issue at hand:
Did God follow through on satan's request that God "put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath" (Job 1:11)???
As you well know, God did not move against Job. It is clear from the record that God moved against satan and did not allow satan to touch Job.
really? Elihu kept speaking for another 5 chapters. At the end of Elihu's diatribe, the very next verse shows that God spoke to Job. Job's prayer was then answered and Job moved on from the speaking with his friends to hear from God.
Job did not interrupt God to respond to Elihu ... which was wholly appropriate on his part.
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