The book of Job

Genez said:

That is how Satan felt free to have the audacity to covet the Throne of the Most High.

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Ezekiel 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

I always thought satan was prideful because he was the "anointed cherub" and God set him as such. It is a special privilege from God to be singled out in any capacity (imho). satan was set apart in some fashion and his wisdom was corrupted because of his pride.

I look at some of the records in Scripture which indicate heaven is filled with praise for God ... holy worship of Most High God ... and that is how it should be.

satan wanted that praise and adoration for himself and, in his pride, he thought he could attain it ... he even thought he could bamboozle the Lord Jesus Christ into worshipping him.

Genez said:

No... I did not think of that myself.

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heh ... R.B. Thieme???

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reneweddaybyday said:

Ezekiel 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

I always thought satan was prideful because he was the "anointed cherub" and God set him as such. It is a special privilege from God to be singled out in any capacity (imho). satan was set apart in some fashion and his wisdom was corrupted because of his pride.

I look at some of the records in Scripture which indicate heaven is filled with praise for God ... holy worship of Most High God ... and that is how it should be.

satan wanted that praise and adoration for himself and, in his pride, he thought he could attain it ... he even thought he could bamboozle the Lord Jesus Christ into worshipping him.





heh ... R.B. Thieme???

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Not him.
Apparently you know who he is.
I have learned a great deal from him over the years.
But, he always attributed the Angel of Jehovah to a Christophony.
I just showed you how Jesus Being fully man (soul) could not be an angel.

reneweddaybyday said:

satan wanted that praise and adoration for himself and, in his pride, he thought he could attain it ... he even thought he could bamboozle the Lord Jesus Christ into worshipping him.

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Satan's mindset is now displayed before all angels to see in fallen men who suffer from delusional disorder.

Genez said:

Satan's mindset is now displayed before all angels to see in fallen men who suffer from delusional disorder.

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1 Peter 1:6-12

6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations:

7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

8 Whom having not seen, ye love; in whom, though now ye see him not, yet believing, ye rejoice with joy unspeakable and full of glory:

9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

I always considered the angels referred to in the "things the angels desire to look into" were ministering spirits (Hebrews 1:4) ... the angels which minister at God's direction.

Do you believe 1 Peter 1:12 also relates to fallen spirits? Do all the angels "desire" to look into these "things"?

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reneweddaybyday said:

12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

I always considered the angels referred to in the "things the angels desire to look into" were ministering spirits (Hebrews 1:4) ... the angels which minister at God's direction.

Do you believe 1 Peter 1:12 also relates to fallen spirits? Do all the angels "desire" to look into these "things"?

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The fallen angels would hardly "desire" to look into those things.

With the Greek emphasis when seen, is closer to meaning to the following.

Genez said:

The fallen angels would hardly "desire" to look into those things.

With the Greek emphasis when seen, is closer to meaning to the following.

The angels have an insatiable desire to bend over and concentrate on these things.​

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yeah ... that's how I've understood this section ... don't think those fallen angels want their faces rubbed into the absolute victory the Lord Jesus Christ had/has/will continue to have over them ... but the ministers of God revel in God's magnificent plan as they see things fall into place.



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ZNP said:

Here is the thing, the book does give us a clear, complete reason why God allowed it and all of these people pretending to read this book skip right over the first chapter which could not be any clearer. The honest answer from anyone who has truly studied this book is that we do know fully why Job suffered.

Job 1:5 And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.

This verse precedes God talking to Satan. It is one of the two most crucial verses of the entire book. Job was not praying for his sins to be forgiven, he was interceding on behalf of his children and paying the price for their sins. That is what Jesus did on the cross. That is what the priesthood of Melchizedek is all about, interceding for others to pay the price for them. Jesus is a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek. The book of Job shows Job paying the price for others and it concludes with

Job 42:8 Therefore take unto you now seven bullocks and seven rams, and go to my servant Job, and offer up for yourselves a burnt offering; and my servant Job shall pray for you: for him will I accept: lest I deal with you after your folly, in that ye have not spoken of me the thing which is right, like my servant Job.

This is how it concludes, Job interceding for his three friends. There is a price that must be paid to intercede for others. The book of Job is for those who are not interested in simply being "blessed" by God, but they want to have a ministry that can help rescue others. This is the conclusion of the book of James and the conclusion of Paul's ministry (book of Philemon) and the point of the book of Hebrews.

James 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

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You’re still doing the same thing Job’s friends did.


You’re taking something that is true in the book (Job interceded for his children and later for his friends) and turning it into the full explanation for why he suffered. The book never says that.


Job 1:5 shows Job was a godly man who cared about his family. That’s why God could point him out to Satan. But the text never says the suffering was the “price” of that intercession. The actual reason given in the opening chapters is Satan’s challenge and God allowing the test to prove Job’s integrity.


God never tells Job, “You suffered because you were paying the cost of interceding for others.” The friends never say it either. And when God speaks from the whirlwind, He doesn’t explain it that way.


So once again, a theory is being added that the book itself does not state. That’s exactly what the friends kept doing, inventing reasons for the suffering that went beyond what God had actually revealed. And God was not pleased with them for it.

reneweddaybyday said:

yeah ... that's how I've understood this section ... don't think those fallen angels want their faces rubbed into the absolute victory the Lord Jesus Christ had/has/will continue to have over them ... but the ministers of God revel in God's magnificent plan as they see things fall into place.

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The Word of God when taught boldly and accurately in the Spirit effortlessly resists them.
When that happens they have to flee.


They would rather be bowling.

ZNP said:

Why does a navy seal have to suffer through the grueling training to become a Navy seal?

The one thing that the book of Job is crystal clear on is that Job does not suffer because he "has sinned". It is not due to some hidden sin. On the contrary Satan targets him because he is righteous.

The New Testament is not a "bless me club". You are supposed to go on from being blessed where you are the one that the good Samaritan rescued to being the one that goes and does likewise, and there is a price to pay in order to do that.

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No one is saying Job’s suffering was for no reason. It clearly had a reason. The book just never tells us the full “why” or what the deeper purpose was. The point of the book is that we trust God even when we don’t get the explanation.

ZNP said:

Yes, it does tell us the why. Job want to be able to intercede for others, even to pay the price for others (that is what a burnt offering is). That is how the book starts, and that is how it ends.

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But Job offering sacrifices and interceding for others was not the "why" of his suffering.

It is true that God does not explain to Job the two encounters with satan that initiated Job’s ordeal. Job does not have that knowledge, nor is he provided it when God appears to him. This we know.

What else do we know?

1. God only refers to Job to others by calling him “My servant”. Every single time this is the title God uses when referring to Job.
2. God allows Job to suffer, first the loss of his possessions, and second the loss of his health.
3. Job ultimately endures his ordeal, remains steadfast (James 5:11), and never curses God as satan falsely predicted.
4. God restores Job, blesses him with twice as many possessions, and Job lives 140 more years.

One of the takeaways for me as to “why” Job suffered goes back to satan’s false claims. satan believes that if Job were to suffer he would curse God to His face. I believe God already knows this is a false claim. So why have Job go through it? Was it only to prove satan wrong? Partly, I think, yes. But also I think it is to prove to Job and anyone who hears Job’s story that God’s connection with His creation is ultimately not transactional.

It’s relational.

Even when everything went haywire for Job, Job still sought God. And ultimately, God never abandoned Job. This I believe is all for God’s glory and reveals the transcendent bond God has with those who trust in Him.

ZNP said:

Really? Think about that man who wants to be a Navy Seal because he wants to protect his country and his people. He has to apply for the job. That is what Job is doing in chapter one when he offers the burnt offerings. God is the one in charge of hiring, He sees His application, considers it, says "there is not anyone better" and so accepts the application and informs Satan to put him through what is commonly known as "Hell week". But once he successfully completes those tests he is now a Navy Seal. Likewise, once Job completes his hell week he is now an intercessor for others.

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Applying for a job? I agree that the way in which he prayed for others, and offered sacrifices on behalf of his children were examples of what God said about him being blameless and upright, fearing God and shunning evil, when He spoke to Satan:

NKJV Job 1:8 Then the LORD said to Satan, "Have you considered My servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, one who fears God and shuns evil?"

The only sense in which you could say that he suffered because he sacrificed for others and prayed for others is that his godliness was the reason that Satan hated him. If that is what you meant by the sacrifices and prayers being the "why" of Job's suffering, I would agree.

Incidentally, not being in the USA, I don't really know what navy seals are. I imagine some members of the US armed forces trained to fight at sea.

ZNP said:

A Navy SEAL is an elite special operations force member of the United States Navy. The name SEAL stands for Sea, Air, and Land, which describes the primary environments where they train and execute secret, high-risk missions.

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Thanks so much for explaining.

reneweddaybyday said:

yeah ... that's how I've understood this section ... don't think those fallen angels want their faces rubbed into the absolute victory the Lord Jesus Christ had/has/will continue to have over them ... but the ministers of God revel in God's magnificent plan as they see things fall into place.

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Not related to this post of yours, I was wondering if you could talk more about your view of Job 42:11.

Job 42:11
Then all his brothers, and all his sisters, and all who had known him before, came to him, and they ate bread with him in his house; and they consoled him and comforted him for all the evil that the LORD had brought on him. And each one gave him one piece of money, and each a ring of gold.

I know you've touched on it before, but I am curious to hear more about your interpretation of this verse. There wasn't really room before during the maelstrom of activity in this thread : ) so i thought I would take the opportunity to circle back now.

Would you mind sharing? Thanks!

What if Satan's challenge to the Lord concerning Job, had a deep meaning other than what we see on the surface?
That his challenge was to prove a point about how God operates unfairly when punishing or disciplining His children?

For God did not instantly give up on the rebellious angels.
That He first tried discipline and punishment to cause them to return to their senses.
For that's what a father does with his children.


Hebrews 12:5-7


What if Satan had been claiming his resolve not to return to God was because of how God treated him?
That it was God's fault?

Satan's challenge may have held a deep meaning that needs to be dug out like buried treasure.

grace and peace ...........

Genez said:

What if Satan's challenge to the Lord concerning Job, had a deep meaning other than what we see on the surface?
That his challenge was to prove a point about how God operates unfairly when punishing or disciplining His children?

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I guess we could speculate, sure.

For God did not instantly give up on the rebellious angels.
That He first tried discipline and punishment to cause them to return to their senses.
For that's what a father does with his children.

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I am not familiar with any passage where God did not give up on rebellious angels. Can you help show me where I can find that idea? One thing that I immediately think of is when Jesus says He saw satan fall like lightning from heaven. Sounds like a very swift, severe and drastic judgment.

Also, are you suggesting angels are like children to God, too? Not sure I've heard of that concept before. If that's what you meant, could you explain a bit more about that?

Hebrews 12:5-7

And have you completely forgotten this word of encouragement that addresses you ​

as a father addresses his son? It says,​

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“My son, do not make light of the Lord’s discipline,​

and do not lose heart when he rebukes you,​

because the Lord disciplines the one he loves,​

and he chastens everyone he accepts as his son.”​

​

Endure hardship as discipline; God is treating you as his children. For what children are not ​

disciplined by their father? ​

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I think there is merit in using this passage in light of Job. It seems like it can apply to what Job experienced.

What if Satan had been claiming his resolve not to return to God was because of how God treated him?
That it was God's fault?

Satan's challenge may have held a deep meaning that needs to be dug out like buried treasure.

grace and peace ...........

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How did you ascertain that satan had a choice to return to God? Again, I am not familiar with this idea, so can you help explain where this idea derived? Thanks!